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Stop stealing our memes.

Inb4, LTV meme. Surplus value is a non-measurable magnitude and therefore and false magnitude.

If you think that work alone can provide value to something, you haven't seen me cooking.

Fucking hell, that was gr8

And yet capitalism still manages to function.

Appeal to ignorance.

Maybe the fact that, as you admit, functions, means that it's not really a system that allows generalized parasitic behaviour.

Not a system wherein technology and social organization are geared towards reduction of work and subsequently renders it laughably easy to produce the basic means of subsistence, no.

It can be measured, and in fact has been measured, though it's more obvious in industries that produce actual goods.

The value you of goods one worker produces in a day versus minus the actual wage their compensated with and overhead. That's the surplus value.

I don't understand anarchists. Why on earth would an ideology where you can do whatever you want with ultimate freedom and no state holding you back need to split into other retarded super special shit that just defeats the purpose of ultimate freedom and the ideology itself?

Just makes me look at the author of the Anarchist Cookbook who is now a today a very devout Christian. Will you anarkids ever grow up too?

Oh, I'm all too aware. In a capitalist society, it's the system of social production for private benefit.

No, all class societies are inherently parasitic, which is why they eventually collapse. Or does your "kiss up, kick down" attitude extend even to defending feudalism and slave society and claiming those weren't parasitic societies?

That regardless of who does the work, proceeds are actually spent in a matter not constitutive to who has the legally enshrined right to private ownership via state legislature (you; the capitalist), and to have the leverage over what its fate is (the impoverishment over the few to sate your parasitism, and by extension the needs of a generated system of private property).

Those types of technological messianisms are laughable and any serious investigation of how labor reacts to technological advancements would allow you to see that. If anything, in the near future work hours will be shorters, more specialized and prices will be lowers. Nothing else.

Yeah, I have seen those "studies". As they say in computer science "garbage in, garbage out". It has a 0% amount of replicability.

Besides, the same thing that Marx claims to be "surplus" is found in coops. The Pr = d + v + (c + v)*p formula equates that to benefits, making only loses to be somehow "non-oppressive". I can link you to an article about it, but it's in spanish.

It depends on what kind of "class" it's in place. An arbitrary religious/statistic elite is.
I fail to see how allowing people to choose what to do with their lives as long as they don't harm others is somehow parasitic. Because they achieve different levels of financial prosperity? Why should I care?

Says the one who wants to enforce aggressive authoritarians regimes to purge disidents due to random personal phobias. At least tankies are honest.

Yeah, I'm done. I don't know why I though that I could have some discussion of value here.

Property is theft, you are not an anarchist OP, It doesnt matter how hard you try to fit in

Yes, this is the fundamental flaw in coops and why most Marxists don't believe that coops alone are the answer.

All classes are built on a sort of parasitism.

Except it does harm others. That's the whole point.

You know an ancap is losing an argument when they randomly bring up the 100 gorillions as their "argument"

Yes, which is why no well-read and educated communist serious about more than just democratizing private enterprize shits on the notion that coops = socialism, although democratized slavery to impersonal market forces is miles more preferable to autocratic slavery to them. Actually watch WEBM related and you'll realize that the critique of any notion of "market socialism" has been thoroughly put in the dustbin for almost two centuries, even if this democratic type of capitalism is still not awful inherently.

No it does not, retard, as you could sell commodities using its cost-of-production as price, that way there would be no bourgy economic "growth"

Yeah, I know I'm going to regret this.

Already answered to those irrational phobias.

Such circularity. Kropotkin was already BTFO by Marx centuries ago. The fact that even I know more about your own literature than you do is laughable.

So who is this phantom force oppressing coops? You are just unwilling to consider for a second that the LTV is wrong, are ya?

You have, as of yet, failed to prove me that.

We only tend to do so when insulted. You see, we tend to be cordial even with mass murderers. And I really don't know why are you somehow surprised that you are reminded of it often. It wasn't exactly something that the world can ever forget. Your ideology will carry with that stigma forever.

Even Marxists admit that it does. You haven't read shit, have you?

I'll watch it later.

Prove it yours first

Marx replies to Bakunin, Proudhon, Stirner and so on are literal autistic screeches

Because they are retarded, if the production cycle looks like M-C-M, instead of M-C-M', or C-M-C instead of C-M-C', where is the surplus?

Which phobias? Let's do a rundown:
Who gets to decide where the proceeds of the firm's output goes under today's society, or at least who has the biggest leverage? Is it capital, or labor? I'd say pic related shows you just about what answer is in place here.

Reiterating:
How do you ensure that your entitlement as proprietor over private property prevails? You consult the state which, for a small price of literally nothing in taxes you pay the price for, you're allowed to have a fully defended and legally mandated operation to get filthy rich off the backs of others on. You can even artificially scarcify the free reproduction of goods in the public domain with patenting for the low, low price of almost nothing at the state and you'll have the exclusive right to produce your plastic dildos only, or get handy state processes like law and violence to repair any damages to your profiteering venture just in case. I think the paraonoia here is also abated, no?

Argumentum ad JPEG idemum.

The inhuman logic of capital.

I already have, and you've only been able to respond "nuh-uh" with some irrelevant aside about individualist ideology.

I guess that's how your lot are able to be cordial with each other.

Yes, I'm sure those monopolies, recessions, feudal systems and privately owned buisenesses won't be subject to corruption.

Now to be fair, I respect your disdain for the state, but with no form of communal authority, being workers co-ops, autonomous regions and you relying on the NAP (being a spook which can be violated by an egoist who seeks to claim that property as its own), you're risking running feudalism 2.0 electrical boogaloo.

To be honest, I don't necessarily hate an caps as much as others do, but privatising everything isn't the best form to govern, especially when capitalism itself relies on the state to function (even Adam Smith admits this)

I would advocate for mutualism or democratic confederalism tbh famalam.

Marx's most notable critique of Proudhon is from "Poverty of Philosophy", in which Marx rebuts does the following:
Following Marx's critique, we need to exit philosophy's own boundaries to analyze the world in a new perspective of political economy, based on the desire to change society. Philosophy to be an intellectual weapon instead of its own space of justifications.

Furthermore, Marx critiqes Proudhon on consumption tax and Proudhon's opposition to striking. Finally, the text ends with the George Sand citation of "Combat or death, the bloody war or nothingness. It is in this way that the question is immortally posed."

If this triggers you so much that you can both call it "autistic screeching" and ignore Proudhon's irrelevance ever since, the joke is most likely on you. Now go read a fucking book.

Also,
It's a two and a half minute long fucking video. If you have time to shitpost, you have time to watch a 2 minute video.

Let me print that imageso I can put it in the trashcan

Pure ideology

How does it feel to know workersco-ops are still a thing while every form of central planning ended in failure?

Besides, it is funny that you claim Marx as all knowing because he delimited the problems Produhon theory had, when Bakunin did the same to him

...

Muh spooks! Locke's theory of labor, Nozick's entitlement theory, among many others. It's true that property is an open issue on philosophy, but hey, isn't everything? If anything you disbelieving on it has a lot more to proof than I do.

I fail to see why.

It's offert and demand, friendo.

There are many ways (too many to discuss here), excluding a LIMITED minarchistic state, which is also possible. Enforcing contracs and defending property rights only seem "violence" to those who would violentate those, against the will of most of us. The conflict, as I see it, it's mostly a different posture on philosophical & ethical matters, and we should focus there If we want to make some progress. You'll find some clues of what I mean on my previous messages.

If you really think that's what my arguments are, we are mostly done here. I have no interest in arguing with you should I be right, and you should have no interest in arguing with me If you are.

Stay buttmad, genocide, and see pics related

I will, but If you didn't noticed I'm "debating" like 5 or 6 people at once here. In fact I'm already kind of tired of it. I'll probably will be going now, got shit to do. As I said, i'll watch it afterwards.

See ya.

Just like capital.

Proudhon categorically rejects all of these notions in his own "Philosophy of Poverty" lmao. He literally does it in the same book where he says workers shouldn't strike and that his model of "market socialism" will have fucking taxation on consumption.

Feels pretty bad that capital still permeates the world-systemic economy, and that there's a few barista cooperatives out there that happily slave to market forces under the idea that it's socialism just because they each get to vote with how they'll impose their labor towards the aforementioned.

Once again, I only wish there were more coops, because they're still if anything preferable to autocratic firms. What I contest is the memetic idea of them constituting socialism, nor that they offer any serious potential as a basis for an actual offensive against capitalism.

You'll have to give me some examples, or give Misses Dunayevskaya a proper read and rebuttal: marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1942/russian-economy/index.htm.

Is this why the revolutionary left abandoned Marx in favor of Bakunin just like it abandoned Proudhon in favor of Marx? Oh wait; the real display of autistic (and anti-semitic and crypto-liberal) screeching in all of this came from Bakunin. At least Proudhon kept his idealist prejudices at home when he discoursed with Marx!

Wew

OP left after posting that message. I'm another ancap.

I already told you how surplus value could be measured. Now you're just spouting talking points without even attempting to justify them.

That's what you literally did here

After simply hinting that it might be possible for non-parasitic classes to exist (an absurdity you don't even attempt to justify with argument), you just go on about how people should be able to choose to do with their lives blah blah blah. It had nothing to do with my point.

That's right, my dude. In all those societies, you had private ownership of the means of production for the purpose of producing a profit and reproducing capital. It isn't whatever you've fetishized it as.

Do you have any self-awareness? You are a dumb leftcom, what makes you belive I care about your central planning authority deciding who produces what?

Your theory literally revolves around pinpointing out others not adhering to Marx, yet, when confronted with the question of how the productive cycle will look like, you offer no response

But the revolutionary left has never accomplished central planning!!, You cant have your cake and eat it too
If the recolutionary movements of the 19th centruty were not true communism, yet only true communists follow marx, why did the revolutions failed?

So you cant prove its yours? I dont see why anyone should respect it then

It comes to bite you back in the ass every once in a while, or makes people angry enough so that they will concoct a theory to help the masses bite you back. It's also counter to your very notion of the supposed "justness" of the >free market, which is ironic when you invoke moral relativism while ignoring its own paradigms.

Mediated by impersonal market forces and, hegemonically, on the proprietor's whim instead of the laborer's. You're a coward hiding behind the systemic consequences of the basis you advocate and perform.

The ultimate consequence being "having a state but not calling it one", which ultimately still means a coercive enforcement of your contradictory system of supposed freedoms which require to be put at the barrell of a gun.

Your tirade could have only gotten to contractual slavery through financing (primitive accumulation), inheritance of the systemic violence of literal slavery systems (feudalism, bondslave society) or at the literal barrell of a gun or the state's muh privileges entirely.

There is also an inherent violence in keeping people starving until they decide to cave in to your demands or die at the hands of your rifle, behind which sit an abudnance in goods and the means to obtain goods for everyone's survival. This again all in the title of your greed, and the greed generated by your vacuous and unchecked ideology.

It isn't. It's historical. You are on the wrong side of history if you think you can forever quell your tyranny behind the mask of "ethics" and consequential abstractions second to ideology. The only way you can make capital eternal is by making sure the human race dies out and doesn't see the day to actually a write a new page in its species' history.

I will find only sophism and intellectual lightweight guided by unchecked ideology.

Nobody here in their right mind advocates for a return to Stalinism. We advocate not laying down and dying to your bullshit just because we've failed before or our odds are low. I don't even need to link to you a proper analysis showing that the USSR was little different from capitalism but with red flags and brutally honest coercion; I do not want, defend or desire it entirely. Be consistent in your pedantry and the crux of your arguments or remain "cucked".

Ah, my bad. Sorry bout that

...

More than self-awareness I have read a critical mind which comes from also having read books.

Really makes you think.

No such thing. As is often said on Holla Forums, how about you actually read about what Marxist communists advocate instead of low-key superimposing Stalinist praxis as the basis of Marxist advocacy (protip: saying the two are inextricably linked is a slippery slope to me showing, with data and historical accounts, that all supposedly "anarchist" revolutions were a half step away from being literally Stalinism but with a shade of black, so argue your content instead of your intellectual dishonesty).

Nope. As a communist, I inherently accept that Marx must be revised where he should be wrong. Because I'm a communist, not a Stalinist; what is true should not be limited by appeals to muh anti-revisionism. It just so happens that Marxist theory still invalidates the every notion of "market" and "socialism" not being entirely antagonistic categories.

ＳＯＣＩＡＬＩＳＭ　ＡＫＡ　ＴＨＥ　ＬＯＷＥＲ　ＰＨＡＳＥ　ＯＦ　ＣＯＭＭＵＮＩＳＭ．　ＰＲＯＤＵＣＴＩＯＮ　ＦＯＲ　／ＵＳＥ／，　ＮＯＴ　／ＥＸＣＨＡＮＧＥ／．

Various books have been written about this, and you know which they are and how to consult them. I can even recommend you a few you've likely not read (just like it's apparent you've not read the famous ones, or just glanced at them or ignored their content).

If I have an emancipatory project, it is that I want to see it enacted, you dumb faggot. The fact that >muh coops can exist perfectly alongside traditionally financed capital, or even outcompete it in productive and profit-based efficiency, completely proves that I have more to gain and prove than your ethico-democratic capitalism ever will.

Their character was definitely authentic, definitely proletarian and definitely communistic in intent.

Nobody is forced to "follow" anyone or flaggelate at his altar. All I suggest is not to ignore the theory he's birthed into the annals of the communist movement, because it's worth a big fucking damn.

Baby on Bordiga!

Then what do you advocate, faggot, feel free to explain how your special snowflake communism will work, just so I can point out how work is still commodified and commodities have an exchange value

You are a retard arent you? All of them were sabotaged by marxists

Dangerously IdPol, besides, marxists praxis have proven that you cannot eliminate "market" forces

I am an english teacher, how am I going to obtain basic goods if not by exchanging my labour for bread for example? Am I going to eat the exams given to my students? No?

Seems like I will have to exchange my labour!! And since it would be stupid to belive I will be able to demand a higher degree of use-values than the ones I generated under the SANLT working as a teacher, it seems like my labour has been commodified!! It has an exchange value on its own!!

Now please, engage in the usual mental gymnastics your kind does

Kek

You fail to understand that the working class is in itself part of the capitalist mode of production, it has to stop being working class in order to emancipate itself, funny you claim markets and capitalism go hand in hand when in reality workerism and capitalism have been in the bed for over 300 years

AnCap might be the only real anarchists since you can't eliminate property. Even animals can comprehend such a basic thing. That doesn't mean it's good because a state is nice for things like actually achieving big goals.

I completely agree.

So when a thief steals your wallet, it is still your wallet, despite not beingable to reclaim possession of it?

Your ex-gf is still your property, you just lend her to that other guy aswell?

...

Allright, I might have time for another round. After that I'll gtfo though.

Weren't you they guy who said that my arguments were nothing but "nu-huh"?
Why are you degrading yourself to argue with me then? Carry on with your life, my dude.

Capitalism is something more than sporadic private property. Monarchy is also "private property". Specifically, private ownership of the entire country by one man.

You left out voluntary exchange, wage labor, price system, competitive markets… ect.
Certainly isn't state capitalism what I'm arguing for, which I'd agree with you that it's just as genocidial as communism, mostly due to the concentration of power on a small clique of psychopaths, as always.

Then perhaps what it's bad are the demagoges and sophists that siphon the personal failures of some individuals into wacky and destructive ideologies. Not my fault that people can't live with their short-comings.

That's only on a monopoly my friendo.

I did call it one, I just said that, while not being ideal, it can be "tamed" separating powers, reducing public expenses, ect.

See

You can make any """theoretical""" (to call marxism something other than sophism and psychological proyections) acrobatics that you want, It doesn't change the fact that you DO have a choice other than working on a capitalistic system or starving. If anything people choose the first option because it's more often than not, the best one. Instead, you insist in being an hypocrite and recurring to the same violence that you denounce to further your goals, which are nothing more than disolving that "abundance of goods" that you seek to steal from their rightful owners into nothing. Which is all that a communistic system brings: Absolutely nothing. Because every revolution eventually finds out that the abundance of goods shouldn't be taken from granted. it doesn't exists on a vacuum, inmune to your shenanigans.

More ideological mumbo-jumbo.

Projecting much? Also not an argument. Your entire post was devoid of arguments.

And yet, that and it's variants are the only type of communism, because it's the only one that makes something long lasting. A long lasting nightmare in that case. And believe me, I know about the anarchokiddies, I'm from Spain. They are not better in any way, except that they are easier to get rid off.

I'm glad that people like you are scarce and you ideology is a thin remnant of a long forgotten calamity, destined to disolve into nothing, eventually.

That is nothing but rethoric and appeal to emotion.

Welp, don't have time for more. I'd suggest that you beyond your pride and your envy and try looking at the bigger picture. Consider that you might be wrong, and you might be making a grave mistake.

joj.

Literally communism: a society of social ownership characterized by the abolition of property relations and consequently production for use, as well as the necessity of any form of state function to maintain it.

joj. This is the same argument Stalinists pull; we were being tyrants but because we had to; those anti-communist, bourgeois, westerners were in our way! Have some fucking spine, you tool.

The symbolatry of your black flag must mean you're into anti-colorism, I bet. Really, do you understand what identity politics means, and why it is distinguished from class politics (and not using adjectives and descriptors), you fucking mongoloid?

I'm not here to explain to you the difference between production for use and exchange. I'm more than glad to discuss its contents, but if you bring up examples that don't even touch on the basic difference, it shows you're not even educated enough on the things you supposedly invalidate. Just reading Marx would have sufficed, but you evidently haven't or have no intent of not being disingenuous or facetuous if you indeed did read about the very basic distinction.

Investing capital (dead labor) into commodities only to equal quantitiesa of capital (dead labor)? Is the black flag the one behind this black magic, or are you just spewing concepts you don't understand?

Get a name or trip so I can filter you. You're too much of an undisciplined retard or disingenuous cunt to argue with. Besides, this thread is for arguing with the neo-feudalist ITT, not your dustbin-belonging ass.

Like the financial sector in post-modern capitalism?

No they can't.

And if we're going to base our society on the "law of the jungle", then I should be able to take my boss's job by killing him.

Every time.

You are an animal, you faggot. Also, joj and pic related. And also:
But what distinguishes the worst of architects from the best of bees is this, that the architect raises his structure in imagination before he erects it in reality.
- t. garl margs

It is your own inevitable failure to maintain the web of lies you uphold to practice your operation that is demagoguery and sophist, nothing else.

Like yourself. Or at least you inhibit every single one of its ontological symptoms, anyways.

The natural consequence of economic systems based on private property relations, because they themselves rely on the logic of coercion (monopoly on the legitimacy of violence's prevailing).

So you're a special snowflake, what's new?

The only reason you've gotten to this point is because you're "BTFO" (probably your choice of habitual words). And you know it. You've blown your chance at me putting in any effort in your shitty thread now, so congratz on being even less of a man than you ever were.

Pretty much. You dismiss our points without arguing why they're wrong. That's little more than "nuh-uh"
Because you're on here. I'll leave you alone if you return to >>>/liberty/

No, along with the logic of capital reproduction, that's pretty much what capitalism is.

Not really, the feudal system was bit more complex than the fairly straightforward system of owners and workers that you have in capitalism. Capitalism has simplified things somewhat.

It's possible to have markets without capitalism. Capitalism is specifically the use of private property for the reproduction of capital.

Kek, read history, besides, to imply anarcho-communists insurrections as the only plausible movement against the state is hypocrital when you demand to be recognized as something different to the M-L and Maoists regimes
>I cannot explain the difference between production of exchange, because I am too dumb to understand a teacher has no fucking use to the classes he produces
Disappointed but not surpised

Kek!

This is what happens when you take the "Stay on the sofa doing nothing" Bordiga meme

Not even him but lol.

The first accounts of Catalan repression, labor camps, secret police and financial bases came to light from members of the CNT/FAI itself (literally one of Durruti's protegés wrote about it) was the day when even modern anarchists themselves completely started to distantiate themselves from anything but the "spirit" of Catalonia. In fact it's what motivated anarchist towards post-leftism and illegalism as opposed to civil and platformist anarchism.

>libcom.org/files/WorkersAgainstWork-Seidman_0.pdf
>books.google.fi/books?id=zaaRvUxm0ZAC&pg=PR3&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
>books.google.fi/books?id=0F20CAAAQBAJ&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=that the decisions made by comrades assigned to any particular task, whether administrative or military, should be executed without any obstruction in the name of liberty, a liberty that in many cases degenerates into wantonness.&source=bl&ots=47ZX3yWrBA&sig=iF3hYQ4xeaz8Z9SHqd8qmlaJ77A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC67rEt8zNAhXIDCwKHccHAfwQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=that the decisions made by comrades assigned to any particular task, whether administrative or military, should be executed without any obstruction in the name of liberty, a liberty that in many cases degenerates into wantonness.&f=false (this fucking paragraph alone lmao)
>spunk.org/texts/places/spain/sp001532.html

Anarchists are still a joke today (because they do nothing), but at least they're not just a black shade of tankie anymore!

CNT was a bunch of class collaborators themselves, they refused to get rid of the state and actively participated on it, anarchists saw this as a lack of compromise from the radical left towards the struggle for the emancipation of the working class

Tankies did something at least, it wasn't particularly good, but it was a thing, kinda. Remember when they sent a dog into space? Sure, Laika never came home but it's the journey, not the result. Another classic Tankie prank

For those of you still in the dark on how Stalin got rid of his political opponents, this thread should provide sufficient explanation:

Stalin let his political opponents accuse each other of betraying the Revolution, let them judge each other, let them found each other guilty, and, finally, let them sentence each other to execution.

First dogs came back safely (Shepard-style space travel). Laika was the first dog to orbit the Earth (Gagarin-style space trave).

Never change Koba.

then why don't you do it? Ancaps are clearly in the minority when it comes to fringe ideologies

Literally the penchant of the CNT/FAI included the inner democratic decision to do what it did. Blaming 50% of the CNT/FAI could maybe be considered a lukewarm excuse for what happened were it not for the fact that the anarchist wing itself enthusiastically agreed to everything by majority. All accounts to this are listed in those links, which are good reads.

Also the anarchists (who kickstarted the revolution) were literally the ones to start the popular front, for which at best your excus can be "uh, it was a wrong choice to invite over the Marxists because even though they're the only reason we even got anywhere at all, it's their fault for ruining muh anarchist utopia even though the anarchists happily went along with every anti-socialist policy, including when the anarchist-Stalinist secessions had already happened).

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Hey durries,

My name is John, and I averse every particle of you. All of them are fat, delayed, without sign of life, which every second of their day in search of silly ass pictures to spend. You're all error in the world. Honestly, do you receive cat? I mean, I think it's amusement to make joy of people because of your own unsteadyness, but you düebs take it to a whole new level. This is even worse than wanking at pictures on lilterature of visage.

Do not be a alien. Confront me with your best bullet. I'm exorbitantly unimprovable. I was headmaster of the soccer compilation and initializer on my bucket-orb federation. What activies are you executing, apart from "vibrate to naked Vietnamese graphic design"? I also have lined A's, and have a warm comrade (She brushed me, diarrhea was SO currency). You are all durries that are supposed to annihilate you. Thanks for earring.

nobody gives a shit, the communism is satire, Holla Forums is a post-leftist board and a board of peace.

Kill yourself.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE pacifists get out

Do you seriously think anyones going to take you seriously when you open discussion with 'hey faggots' and then go on to talk about how much you don't like us?

Jesus Christ

lol u just got meemed on fag