Does mike mignola admit that Alex Toth is a huge originator of the style or does he just act like he founded it?Never met a mignola fan that talks about toth, only toth fans that are familiar with mignola
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>>116357809The "Alex Toth" style looks an awful lot like Film Noir but applied to Comics. It's entirely possible Mignola and Toth are just fans of similar media.
>>116358668Toth's comic influences included Milton Caniff and Noel Sickles. There was also a DC artist who mentored Toth whose style looked kinda similar to Toth's, but I forget the name right now.
>>116357809>Never met a mignola fan that talks about toth, only toth fans that are familiar with mignolaIt's mainly because Toth's work was really spread out and he didn't do a long run on like an a-list character, so casual fans aren't as aware of him. Those who are aware of him are usually the ones who really do give a shit about comics art beyond whoever's currently popular.
I'm curious but ignorant.Why do believe Toth is the originator of such a style?It seems pretty common of his contemporaries. I understand there must be a first but why is it him?
>>116358983he's the most popular
>>116357809Explain how this looks like a Hellboy comic. It looks more like a Jaime Hernandez book from the fifties.
>>116359058OP is thinking it looks like Mignola because of the black/white contrasts.
Is this because of the letter tweet?marcofinnegan.blogspot.com
>>116357809They're quite different. Mignola stuff also revolves around color.>>116358794Here's a comic by Caniff.
>>116357809Act like what, you faggy little drama queen? Like he invented shadows?Modern fans don't know about Toth because his comics are old as shit. Why you gotta invent drama just because you found an old name and want to brag about it?
>>116357809I'm not really seeing it OP. I'm not a good artist so I admit I may be a poor judge. Just saying that as a layman, this doesn't look like Mignola.
>>116359107Once I started looking into Terry and the Pirates I could see how Milton Caniff's stuff I could see how Jack Kirby, Alex Toth, Darwyn Cooke, and others were influenced by him. A lot of comic book fans in the last three decades aren't really knowledgeable of the comic strips that indirectly built the comic book foundation.
>>116359208Same here. These guys >>116359185 and Winsor McCay were geniuses. I'd really like to get my hands on some Caniff but there's a lot and it's all expensive.
>>116358902Same goes for a lot of great cartoonists.I'm personally a fan of Jerry Grandenetti.
>>116359483Frank Robbins is pretty good too.
>>116358794>>116359107>>116359208Mucho gracias for the info on Milton Caniff, this the first time hearing about him.>>116359185Lots of people hate crazy Dave, I’ve almost finished Cerebus, smart guy. Have one or two issues of glamourpuss should probably try them again.>>116359080Mostly the post modern ish solid blacks with minimal transition tones and fuck offish thin/bold lines and fuck off shadows.>>116359139You’re the faggot with sand in your pussy starting ‘drama’, what are you fucking 15? Comics fucking suck if there’s no drama you ignorant fuck- I’m just trying to start a conversation with a mildly confrontational hook so that we may discuss artists and learn who is an originator of a particular style.Knowledge combined, nerd.>>116359199Keep reading, you dont have to be an artist to see similarities- but you have to expose yourself to a f-Ton more material: see if you can see it in pic related, it’s mastered instead of original.
>>116358983This looks beautiful, what comic is that?
>>116357809Mike Mignola once met Frazetta and told him he was a huge influence. Frank told him he didn't see it and that he looks more like Toth.
>>116359732The panels are from Rip Kirby, a comic strip by Alex Raymond
>>116358983I think Toth's biggest breakthrough is that he combined that sort of style with cartoon stylization. Granted Caniff did very similar, but Toth's main difference was stripping as much excess linework commonly associated with traditional illustration and pushing the black, hard shapes over rendering. a lot of it is probably due to him working in animation.
>>116359521Fuck, I forgot to mention Robbins as another guy who definitely looks like he got influenced by Caniff.
>>116357809Mignola fans don't know about any comics from pre-1986
>>116359732Rip Kirby apparently.
>>116357809On the left page, the bottom panelsWhat technique/medium is being used there to ge those grays?
>>116359803>>116359107>>116359930I usually get amazed on how good the art in these old comic strips is.Maybe it was because of the format, the rythm of work or maybe because only the best of them are still remembered, most probably it is because I don't know too much to compare them with, but damn, they are great.
>>116359968it looks like hatching, but I can't really be sure unless I can see a close-up of the panel.
>>116359968If you mean the right page with the car headlights, its watered down white-out.
>>116360038>>116360101My mistake, yes I meant the RIGHT page> its watered down white-out.Watered down? Won't it make more sense to be watered down ink or ink and whiteout mixed?
>>116360036I know, I had the same feeling when I first looked into them in the last 10 years. The big problem I think is the fact they weren't kept in print for a long time and people don't understand how important they were. Most people's knowledge of comic strips at best is like, Peanuts, Garfield, Calvin and Hobbes, Far Side, Bloom County, Doonesbury, etc. Mostly stuff from the last 40 years if they're aware at all. People mainly remember Flash Gordon as the 1980's movie and not know how influential the comic strip is.
>>116359667>You’re the faggot with sand in your pussy starting ‘drama’, what are you fucking 15? Comics fucking suck if there’s no drama you ignorant fuckYou're seriously going to sit there and conflate industry gossip with classic story structure.
>>116357809Kirby and Frazetta are Mignola's biggest influences aren't they?
>>116360209He'd have to fill in the entire area with black ink first, then do the lights on top with the watered-down white-out. He can't do watered-down ink on top of a blacked-out area, and he can't just draw as he goes along because if he filled in the black ink at the end, it would fuck up the details.
>>116359139>Modern fans don't know about Toth because his comics are old as shit.His name is brought up when Miller Daredevil is talked about, quite often too
>>116360209As far as I an tell, they probably just put down the blacks and then went backover with the whiteout, that way you don't have to worry about the gray whiteout/ink mixture interfering with the little bit of pure white on the image.>>116360281I remember hearing he also liked a lot of Orthodox imagery and tries to put some of that influence in as well.But I'm sure I heard that on here meaning I can't really trust to find any reliable sources.
>>116359750Frank is a legend. Listen to Ralph Bakshi talk about him on Cartoonist Kayfabe, he has great stories
>>116357809Honestly I see a lot of Hugo Pratt's art style in Mignola. Did he ever mention Pratt?
>>116360364Pratt is a looser Toth, though.
>>116360283>>116360319That's actually a really cool trick, I have to try it out soon.
>>116360036This was before TV so the funny pages were revolutionary in delivering serialized visual entertainment. There was a lot of money involved and the talent was respected and had a lot of mainstream fame, strips were a big deal the way TV was a big deal in our lifetimes. It was the best job you could get as an illustrator. Very different scene from comics today.
>>116360364>>116360417Pratt was influenced by Milt Caniff, so that might be why his style seems kinda like Toth's. But I did just find this:vice.com
>>116360669Oh thanks. That is really cool
>>116359667You honestly sound like someone who read his first pre-1986 funny books and want to be editor in chief of the comics journal for that.For all the weird as fuck claims and general saltiness you exhibit, your first thought upon seeing Toth was Mignola (because these are the only two artists to abuse solid blacks), assumed Toth is some secret artist no one talks about and Mignola is ripping him off unfairly and you have never heard of Milton fucking Canniff, arguably one of the most succesful cartoonists in history.
>>116359376Yeah I was shocked to find out that the some volumes of the Terry and the Pirates hardcover that IDW printed were long out of print.
>>116360806Not that user but it is the first time I have heard of Milton Canniff and I'm pretty heavy into comic. I just don't know a lot about comics pre 60s. What you have shown is really good though. Just don't be an ass about it
>>116361007I'm sorry but I had to be an ass to the lad being an ass. Alex Toth is one of the GOATs and it's great that more people are into his work, but trying to instantly turn interest in his work into clickbait by comparing him to Mignola only shows ignorance and immaturity. Also if you're not hep to him yet check out Wally Wood, he has a lot of strip work and sits somewhere between Canniff's naturalism and Toth's pure design.
>>116359667If you've never heard of Caniff, maybe you need to read more and talk smack less
>>116360758This chain of tweets showed a lot of work by people that Toth acknowledged:twitter.com
>>116360364Pratt stole entire strips from Caniff
>>116361068>Wally WoodOh ya. He is pretty well known on Holla Forums just for what he did with Power Girl. He is great
>>116361687Daredevil too, but he's done more outside of capes.
>>116361687his cape stuff frankly pales in comparison to the rest of his work, particularly his strips (though my favourite of his stuff would lie among the EC books).Also I realize this image is in portuguese by i'ma BR so tough luck you anglo faggots
>>116361992>his cape stuff frankly pales in comparison to the rest of his workOh undoubtedly, it is just how people find out about him is usually through the tale of Power Girls increasing beast size
OP here.>>116361068>>116360806>>116361177Look bud if you’re >>116359139 please think of who was an ass first.I see Toth in Mignolas work and I’ve never once read an interview where he mentions him: So I’m immature and ignorant? Quite the opposite, I’m very much a big fan of mignolas work, pic related is my copy that’s been read so many times the pages falling out if I don’t clip it. I’m such a fan that I’ve read interviews. He’s kinda a dick, worse than Ennis at times. So how is stating that to start a discussion clickbait? For that matter, what’s worse: clickbait or derailing with shit posting?Know what would have been immature and dramatic? Starting a thread with my assumption that other anons have already contributed to outlining without directly stating it:Toth was a hard critic so I assume he criticized mignola and henceforth mignola won’t mention the clear influence he’s drawn from toth.I’m familiar with Wally wood, he’s great, love his tits almost as franks.To all the other anons, thank you for taking the time to drop knowledge.
>>116358794>>116359521Bert Christman co-created Wesley Dodds (and did the page seen here), but before that he had been working on the comic strip Scorchy Smith, replacing Noel Sickles.Noel Sickles shared a studio with Milton Caniff before he got to work on Scorchy Smith. Scorchy Smith creator John Terry came down with tuberculosis and they needed Sickles to ghost for him. When Terry died, Sickles got full credit on Scorchy Smith.Sickles left the strip when the comic strip syndicate didn't give him a raise, and was replaced by Bert Christman. Bert Christman worked on the comic for a while joining the Navy and then joining the American Volunteer Group. Frank Robbins was one of the replacement artists on Scorchy Smith, and also did an illustration to accompany an article about Christman's death:newspapers.com
>>116359107>Mignola stuff also revolves around color....are you high?
>>116362821CBA: Why wasn't Sickles received the same way?Alex: Well... from all I've heard, AP didn't treat Sickles well. They cheated him when he found out how many papers... and income Scorchy Smith was bringing in, against his $125 a week (I think he finally got it up to that). In the '30s, that was good money! The daily-only strip was earning $1,500 a week! And he just got fed up with it. He might've stayed, had he been treated well, and that would be true for a lot of cartoonists and people, everywhere, in all kinds of jobs. So I missed having that goal, and reaching it, except as a "ghost" or as an assistant—the Warren Tufts thing, which was a few months, here, and there, then a brief stint on Roy Rogers, subbing for Mike Arens when he was ill.CBA: Young comic book cartoonists look at Caniff and Sickles, and don't get it, don't understand it. They think it's antiquated! How can they see what's really there?Alex: Well, they probably won't, until maybe another 10 years of living and seeing: assessing things. Because their heads are filled with the hot artist in comic books, today. They can't see beyond admiring [Jack] Kirby and [Neal] Adams and whoever else was the hotshot 30 years, 20 years, 10 years ago, that's as far back as they go in time, and everybody keeps regurgitating Kirby/Adams!
>>116362851CBA: And Miller.Alex: And Miller... well, that's another story.But Caniff, Sickles, etc., _the syndicated strips' best past-pasters' works are quiet _compared to comic book art, storytelling, characters and _whatever. It's unfortunate that because you like chocolate, you can't like vanilla, that you can't appreciate other things than what you happen to be very hot about at the moment. It's a big blind spot that young people have about their favorite artists or whatever craze they're locked into which turns them off and on! This tunnel-vision, which I find very strange. They see only that, and nothing else! "Don't confuse me with facts, just let me do my thing, I love this type of art, and only that type of art." When they're older, more mature, if they're lucky, they'll come to appreciate a whole century of newspaper strip art, Sunday pages and dailies, to admire, to be entertained by, to just read... the funny stuff as well as the straight!CBA: And fine art, and photography.Alex: Of course! Yes!
>>116362881CBA: Sickles and Caniff are grouped together so often, can you distill the difference between them?Alex: The younger, Noel Sickles, was the teacher of the older, Milt Caniff. Illustrator/"reporter" is what Sickles was. He didn't exaggerate. He didn't cartoon things. He played it very straight. He was an illustrator! Period! He drew beautifully, had a great eye for perspective, aerial perspective, the whole ball of wax. What he did with figures and lighting and storytelling, the movie techniques he brought into his strip! Black-&-white photography, being 95% of movies in those days, excited him, and he adapted it into his work on Scorchy Smith, using one graytone in his b-&-w art to indicate patterns, light sources showing their effects, in snow scenes, night scenes... remarkable stuff. He was brilliant! Caniff, on the other hand, was more the cartoonist, capable of the bigfoot stuff (although Sickles had that in him, too; both of them much appreciated Roy Crane from the get-go, admired what he could do with simple lines. But, also, that marvelous caricaturist/fantasy artist, T.S. Sullivant). What turned-on Sickles must've turned-on Caniff, re the works of certain artists, cartoonists, painters, because Sickles was keen about impressionists—Monet, Sisley, the political cartoonist David Low, who had lush, wonderful lines and spotting rich blacks, way of drawing and staging! His political cartoons were works of art! Sickles was strongly influenced by Sullivant's distortions, realistic and fantastic, at once. Plus the influence of the Simplicissimus German artist-caricaturist-illustrator Thony and Blix, Gulbransen. He took it all in. Some of it infected Caniff's work, echoes of that influence through Sickles. But Caniff was aware of self-promotion, and how important it would be for a strip, like Terry and the Pirates!
>>116362936Alex: I don't know what he may have done to promote Dickie Dare for AP Features, ungenerous with its money or their own promotional material?! But he was helped by deep pockets of the Chicago Tribune/New York News Syndicate, when he got Terry, and they made the most of it. I've got clips from Mini-Cam Photography, a little slick magazine of World War II, and it's spread with lots of photographs of Milt in Chinatown, New York, with his models for the Dragon Lady, Burma, and Pat Ryan. How he took his own photographs with his Rollie twin-lens reflex camera, at his High Torridge home in New City, New York. There was an issue of a fashion magazine, Vogue or Harper's Bazaar, a big spread. Some fashion designer had used Caniff's drawings of evening-gowned women—from his strip, literally—made the gowns for models who looked like his characters! How Caniff drew them, and the gowned photo models! It was great fun! Done with quality, and respect! Caniff—throughout his career—was very adept at self-promotion, with the assistance of the syndicate behind him. But Sickles had other fish to fry, after his experience with AP (with a strip that I'm sure he enjoyed doing), he went off into advertising... of course, that evolved into doing those Mr. Coffee Nerves Sunday page comic ads with Caniff, using their combined alias, "Paul Arthur" (their middle names), and other ad work on his own—halftone, line, color, and he wound up doing ghost work for Caniff on Terry, because Caniff's phlebitis gave him _trouble, perhaps due to malaria (or not) from his Florida days. Sickles was very handy, thank God, to jump in when he did. Caniff had other people on call to assist; Alfred Andriola, Charles Raab, Ray Bailey in his home studio... there was Frank Engli, master letterer and colorist of the Sunday engraver color guides. When Caniff didn't do them! There was a secretary—I forget her name. But anyway, he was well set-up in his home studio.
>>116362482Mucho gracias user.
This is a bit adjacent to Alex toth but I recently listened to a podcast about Matt Baker, one of the first black comic artists that at the time no one knew he was black. God damn could the guy draw and he was making good money until the CCA came in and basically ruined his entire career.
>>116362793You can't be serious.
>>116363240>until the CCA came in and basically ruined his entire career.It's hard to say because prior to the CCA he was already overworking himself in fear of deadlines. He had a stroke in 1957 and then died of a heart attack in 1959. And geekfrontiers.com
>>116363442While it may have been true that he may have got work at Marvel in the early days the CCA had ruined him already and he was making pennies compared to what he had done before. Can you imagine his sexy women in 60s Marvel? Damn that would have been interesting
>>116363240Was this the guy who drew It Rhymes with Lust? Nigga cocreated the first graphic novel.