GOAP quest generator?

Is there a game with GOAP system quest generation and outcome other than Skyrim and (probably) Fallout 4? Please note that GOAP is more than just random generation, it's a quest generation based on AI's judgement on player's actions.

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Mount and Blade Warband.

doesn't exist
The only "AI judgement" is what level you are and what other quests you've done

Isn't that just random quest?


Specifically, GOAP AI's assign different values to the actions that can possibly be done as a response to the recorded player's actions, and the action with the least/most value would be picked. The details can be seen on Radiant Story page on elder scrolls wiki.

user, you called skyrim. Skyrim just remembers your last dungeon and selects different dungeon for a quest. This isn't what you describe as "GOAP".

Also any kind of generated quests suck dick. Quests must be well written. This thread is shit.

oh my dear sweet child. You didn't believe Todd's lies did you? The "Radiant quest" system is a fraud. It can be summarized as follows "Go retrieve from , Dragonborn!"

They're included in the GOAP programming. GOAP is basically a semi automated finite machine, as a player you usually won't find much difference between the two.


You can leave a quest item and a person who finds it may or may not give it back. Basically simple narratives inside the quests should be considered as well.

What sucks more is when a game has the potential to make a good AI quest generation system, but doesn't even try to do it. I'm looking at you STALKER.

God this thread is terrible. How long you are on Holla Forums? And on imageboards in general? Since when there's anything good with skyrim radiant quests? Your question belongs on reddit.This is sad you never played good rpgs.

Skyrim is garbage, almost unfixable with mods, and you are telling me that those quests that start after completing main quest line in any of the potential guilds are good idea, instead of actually expanding game's story according to its lore and adding more well written quests?

What the literal fuck going on with your mind op, if you aren't autistically baiting and pretending to be completely fucking retarded? Is that your "critical theory"? I mean, remove traditional written quests and replace them with shitty generators? You want No Man's Sky 2?

Good or bad is an opinion. I'm objectively asking about video game mechanics, not your opinion.

And you have the audacity to be judgemental.

OP congratulations, you felll for a marketing scheme to sell skyrim.

In what way? What i said wrong?

Here's a website for autistic people like you, op:
reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/

Go there, don't bother anyone here again.

I know how GOAP works and I can see it working in skyrim, although in a very basic way. Now I'm looking for a game that experiments with such mechanics in a more peculiar and innovative way.


Why should I listen to you?

Skyrim isn't fixable.

You understand that nothing good comes from random generated shit, right?


You can make survival hunting simulator out of it, instead of bothering playing actual hunting simulator or aknowledge their existence :^)

It isn't exactly random. For example, pathfinding in FEAR works by putting a set of objective points in the map, and based on an analysis on the current condition the AI would pick the most "valuable" path. There are always several possible actions to be taken for a certain task, and GOAP provides the possibility of making an intelligent AI without writing a million switch cases of && and II conditions.

First Mechwarrior and Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries.

Quests in a hunting simulation could benefit greatly from GOAP AI. Make the animals travel and stay in a place according to their need of food, drink, socialization, and maybe breeding, and the condition of the area such as temperature and humidity. Make different seasons in the game, and along with player's expertise, animal size, and animal population count will affect the selling price of a hunted animal. Make a variation of the buyers' purpose of buying the animal. Collectors, butchers, and museum curators would value the species of your animals differently. Such game would be far to complex to be done with finite machine, but GOAP would work well in this case.

Thankfully, the OP is asking for procedurally generated shit.


OP, the problem is that for a GOAP system to work, it massively depends on the world and the player and in the interactions you can make between them.
The more complex all 3 of those are, the more can be done with a GOAP but good games with deep enough gameplay to support such a thing most likely don't exist.

You used Skyrim as an example, and it's actually a good one but for different reasons.
The world features mines, logging camps, farms and forts. You'd think that there would be caravans moving goods between them, that blacksmiths would get shipments of ore and wood to make weapons, that those weapons would make their way along side with food to the forts and sustain the troops there and that battles would be fought in the civil war on their own, with cities dynamically changing owners.

Nothing of that happens and if you have a quest about sabotaging a logging camp, it does nothing but progress a quest chain, nothing in the world changes because of that.
But if the world was done in a dynamic manner, you could get quests from the local Jarl related to that economic ecosystem, tips on how to profit for it or missions to solve a pressing emergency, like a camp having been captured by the rival faction.

In short, before you ask for GOAP systems, ask for more dynamic worlds with deeper gameplay.

Weren't a lot of those things scrapped in Oblivion's development? Everyone in the town would kill each other if the caravan fails to deliver it's good for whatever reason along the way, a random thief being caught by a guard could lead the whole town into a fight, some essential NPC's would refuse to interact with the player or be found dead. A complex system of supply and demand easily leads to fatal errors and other unwanted outcomes, I understand the reason why they immensely dumbed it all down.

I'm not looking for "good" gameplay, but an innovative system. And a dynamic world doesn't need to be deep, the world of STALKER feels living and breathing without the NPC's doing anything really fancy. That's because STALKER doesn't need an economic system to work, it's just a wild place where people and animals kill and eat each other and immigrate from places to places for not much reason.

Yes, Oblivion had a lot of similar details, some survived it. Swims-in-water is an argonian in Bravil that's often found dead because she steal food sometimes.

There's also a mod called Vector that allows for diseases to be contagious and soon you live in a plague world because of the interactions between people.

The world is only that crappy and results in all that retarded shit because they can't do it right at all, caravans missing is handled by pantries and other forms of storage delaying effects until new caravans arrive, thieves should surrender or run away, never fight and essential NPCs could have their behaviour overwritten and be immunes to famine with only flavour text about it.
It was dumbed down because they themselves are dumb.

Bethesda's go to method of handling whatever they can't make work properly (because they are talentless hacks) is to remove it.

Its funny, but skytest realistic animals and predators does just this.

Also this.

Radiant AI is such a huge potential, it gives NPC's personal motivations and is able to manipulate it's world naturally. It's the peak of sandbox gaming technology. Too bad the designers are too uninspired to push it to the limit. That, or due to console limitations. Todd needs to fire them all and replace them with these dedicated modders, or just start making PC oriented games again.

To be fair though, this is a really complicated concept to grasp. Not neural AI tier complicated, but still, it's far from traditional video game AI programming. It's a matter of connecting the motivations of all NPC's and their priorities into one coherent experience. Todd would need someone with terminal autism to do the job right.


Todd probably just got appalled by the incompetency of the programmers and decided to remove the functions altogether. He actually made these quotes in GDC:

His vision and expectation for his team is way too high and as a result, the games barely run.

>>>/reddit/

And, PLEASE, never come back.

You said literally nothing other than "I dislike you, go away"
If you don't know how to talk with other people, don't even try it.
Or do try and see if you improve.

see
And go away.

Also

True, it's better to actually provide an argument. Of course, in this case there's mountains of video evidence as to the general shit quality of Bethesda's AI programming.
It consistently fails both in terms of maintaining immersion and functional gameplay.
Also, it's a pretty common event for anons to make broad sweeping statements about what AI should be capable of and yet give no sign of any sort of knowledge of the obstacles, implementation wise. I can't really blame anyone for not wanting to retread that ground over and over.

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You could do whatever the fuck you are talking about but it just takes some effort, something Bethesda doesn't seem to be capable of.


It's unknown how advanced it really was but the official story is that the AI was too reckless, but it seemed like a no brainer on how to stop them from being that way, if I guessed anything it would have been console limitations, because the AI they were talking about was completely possible on the hardware Oblivion was developed on initially.

:^) You guys are too easy (^:


Yeah, he could have posted that youtube video about Oblivion when it was just in beta and Todd was walking around in Chorrol.
It felt very artificial and scripted but if what Todd said were coded features, the game could end up being very cool. Thankfully, Todd never lies so you know those features were simply removed because they clashed with the main quest. The thing that everyone plays the game for.

There's several autism simulators that implement more interesting AI and are done by lone dudes. Dwarf Fortress AI is pretty interesting, Rimworld makes for neat characters (but it could be improved) and any other clone of these does it too.
Their engine even supports the concept of property, storing items and NPC's even react to each other according to their races (which is why they greet each otehr differently, but they don't same a sympathy value except for you) as well as having some other tidbits like classes to distinguish between nobles and paupers.
They have more resources than needed in their engine to actually make something interesting with their AI, they just flat out refuse to do so.


I think the best example they ever gave was a farmer that required a hoe for his generic action of tilling the soil and someone nearby happened to have a hoe in their inventory.
So the NPC does the most logical thing and murders the other guy for it's hoe HUE and goes till the soil like he's not a psychopath.
Which sounds very weird but when your AI has it's entire morality and personality defined with Responsability and Courage integer values, you can't expect nuanced behaviour.

They also had that one example where a Town guard left duty to hunt for food instead of buying it and the other town guards left town to arrest him for leaving his post and then the townsfolk ramsacked the town because no guards. If bethesda gave any shits they would have fixed it and rolled it out in later releases, but they don't so it never happened. I hope OpenMW gets somewhere, even AI schedules would be nice to have in Morrowind.

I even think that radiant quests could work but yet again the developers would have to give a fuck for them to work.

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I don't disagree with any of this, but I don't see how it relates to what you quoted from my post.

That's like saying my roommate "refuses" to play Stravinsky on his piano. He doesn't have the competence to do so, much like Bethesda and good AI.
Also, it's strange to imply that there are some sort of untapped AI resources within the engine. What's in the game is what's in the engine.

Typo, I misspelled "mildly acceptable" as good.

Not even that, Bethesda AI can't even handle pathfinding well and they can't even get it to decide when to jump over things.

Giving examples of games that did better AI made by lone guys, proving it's perfectly possible and it can't be that hard for AAA.

If your roommate's job is pianist and he has studied how to play it, yes.

And just because it's in the engine, it doesn't mean it's used. There's a lot of code and assets Bethesda flat out don't used for anything.

An example of this is the Civil War Overhaul for Skyrim. (a mod I don't often use for being too resource-demanding)
The original game has a civil war where you can never lose a single fight and towns flip loyalty according to the story only.
Meanwhile, a modder came about that made it so you could lose battles, launch your own without resorting to fixed quests and affect the war in meaningfull ways.

Another example is the Faction Ranks that merely serve as a counter and a fancy title for most games since progression in them is tied to the guild quest and that's it.
Meanwhile, someone made several mods for Oblivion where your progression comes from having suficient rank in a few skills of your choice, requiring that you master at least one of the schools before becoming Archmage.
Now keep in mind this is double ironic because you are correct, "What's in the game is what's in the engine" and this was how factions worked in Morrowind.
But that detail was removed from Oblivion and onward. They had the resources to make progressing in a guild more freeform and interesting and they flat out refused to do so or improve the formula.

I never said good AI isn't possible. I said retards making sweeping statements about AI without having any concept of implementation details is a common occurrence here. I'd also guess it's a common occurrence in AAA upper management.
I was pretty sure you'd be able to infer from my post that he is not. He couldn't play Stravinsky if you put a gun to his head. Todd couldn't be 6'4 if you put a gun to his head except on the internet. It's not "refusing" to do something if you are not able to do it. The programmers at Bethesda are unable to implement an AI that even approaches average.


What, specifically, are you claiming are AI-related resources that are special or unique to Radiant AI or Bethesda's engine?

Doesnt elona+ have random quest generation?

What is this thread even about?

It's not a sweeping statement when there are examples of good AI already done, proving it can be done. And the average Holla Forumsirgin might not understand how to code an AI but that doesn't mean they are wrong when they expect games to feature things like proper pathfinding, supply lines or a morality system that the AI can interact with and react to.

And I was pretty sure you'd understand the metaphor.
Bethesda is a videogame company, they make videogames. They have lots of people working for them supposelly with training to make videogames and they have several examples under their belt to learn from and improve upon.

If we were talking about Phil Fish making the next TES (perish the though, loverslab would blush at the cock choking mechanics) then I'd have no problem acepting good AI simply can't happen. But we are talking about a AAA studio that has been working for a few decades with an engine that can do much more than what they've been pumping out, as modders for every iteraction of [Bethesda Game] have shown.

They have the people, the skills, the resources and it's their literal job. So yes, I expect them to put out a good AI.


It has random tasks in the quest board, yes. And random dungeons that are re-rolled every month or so.
But the quests don't affect the village much nor do they impact the economy nor does the AI pick those quests based on how best you can profit them.

Explain how this is not a sweeping statement.

Oh I understood the metaphor. And once again, I never declared good AI to be impossible. But there's a tremendous amount of hard evidence in the form of released product that Bethesda, specifically, do not, in fact have the skills to produce good AI. There's an unfortunately similar amount of evidence attesting to my roommate's ability to play the piano.
I don't think we're going to get much farther with this debate. You attest that Bethesda has competent AI programmers who have implemented special, broadly powerful AI into their game engines but switch it off before release, and you expect them to put out a good AI. I maintain that there's a good couple decades of releases that demonstrate their lack of competence in converting big-picture AI ideas into realistic, effective code, and I do not expect them to put out a good AI. There's not much for us to do but wait and see who turns out to be right.

AI works according to conditions and functions. It isn't about them, what's innovative about Bethesda games isn't the amount of conditions and functions implemented. It's the automated priority based function selection aka GOAP. Whereas in other games, condition will decide what function the AI would do, in Bethesda games one condition may have a lot of functions and the AI itself will decide with calculations of which function is most efficient for the task. I'm solely praising the algorithm, not the amount and accuracy of functions and conditions.

This algorithm is the most valuable resource Radiant engine has. It makes mods such as and possible. Bethesda may not have created an AI that works well, but they're surely innovative. What I want to see in this thread is other games that implement a similar algorithm.