Marxism vs. Cultural Marxism

Cultural Marxism is what going to stop cultural degradation

Cultural capitalism is what moved us from Beethoven and Stravinsky to these rap/pop shit songs

Watch this :
youtube.com/watch?v=S9AbuFhT0W4
And read Adorno "the culture industry"

Good

lolno

Adorno was more Holla Forums than Holla Forums could ever imagine being.

Cultural Marxism is basically Progressive stack and """intersectionality""". Both of those things have NOTHING to do with orthodox Marxism.

Meaning it comes from postmodernism, not the Franks (who were very anti-PC).

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Yes that's what Cultural Marxism *is*, now my question is: surely that's not actually to do with Marxism?

Marx's theories, correct me if I'm wrong, are about reorganizing the societal structure and power to recognize the proletariat, i.e. the largest group and the group that does most of the work.

Hamfistedly applying that to culture and the arts doesn't actually make sense. You can draw parallels but they kind of miss the point of Marxism, as I understand.

I haven't read any, nor will I without very good reason. I'm still open to suggestion if it's really that significant.

If this isn't ironic then yeah I pretty much agree with the sentiment, and it's kind of my premise. And hey look a disagreement: , so I'm right in thinking there's some kind of disagreement going on here?

Yeah and it's my understanding most real world communists were like this, including Stalin.

Will watch

you bring us shame

What did I say wrong? I said that their idea of what Cultural Marxism is has nothing to do with actual Marxism.
Maybe you should read a fucking book.

Cultural marxism = critical theory.>>1116834

Then those marxists were just faking it.

there really isnt such a thing. it came from a nazi myth of "cultural bolshevism," which was an attempt to combine their anti-communist efforts with anti-jewish rhetoric.

What you recognize as cultural marxism, is just a collection of examples of liberalism. It gets called cultural marxism because that sounds much worse than liberalism, but, that's what it is. There is no cultural marxist theory or organizations.

damn, you are so fucking stupid

this is what i meant when i said it's progressive stack, basically
people think slapping "marxism" on it would make it sound spooky or scary or something
it's fucking retarded

Tell us whatcha think fam
And here have some nice music bro
youtube.com/watch?v=ykuF8h7sFwI

youtube.com/watch?v=RZkIAVGlfWk&t

youtube.com/watch?v=w53sagJ4FbQ&t

Did you read Adorno ?
say the truth….

i gotta remember that one.

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jesus, take your own advice

So my first point about the video. It complains a lot about the culture of "music these days", but let's just consider for a moment: there is good music out there, even if it's not mainstream. I mostly listen to small-time creators, which I have the luxury to do online.

These people exist and create music because we live in a capitalist society where people can forgo a utilitarian job and do something that nobody else really cares about, at albeit a lot of financial risk (or leaching off of family whatever).

So, with Real Marxism culture would be even worse, at least from my perspective (unless the capital happened to agree with my music tastes and commissioned only the finest state electronica).

So Real Marxism doesn't really work with this, whatever Cultural Marxism claims to be able to do here, which I think is a flaw of Cultural Marxism (unless Cultural Marxists don't want Marxism, which I don't think is the case).

That's the correct response in public, to dismiss me. But while we're here, I'm not talking about cultural bolshevism, I'm talking about the Cultural Marxist conspiracy theory involving the Frankfurt School, which numerous people in the thread have already posted in response to. (Holla Forums if you want to denounce something as imaginary, don't reply and talk about the real thing like it exists).

It did seem at first a phantom to critique liberals from the right, but it's been legitimized as a marxist talking point by e.g. the people in this thread in-fighting over it, and also for me anecdotally with purist marxists I know complaining about it trying to distract from the movement.

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something you should stop doing because you have no fucking idea what they are

No but it's some leftcom shit right? There's no cultural marxist organizations.

What you call “cultural Marxism” is really just Western liberalism: e.g., opening up the space for individual liberty in the social or cultural realm.

If you mean the Frankfurt School, their critiques were largely a quasi-Marxist approach to understanding how capitalism is reproduced in, and degrades, the culture.

If you're complaining about
I mean specifically:

Not sure why I capitalized "Real Marxism" like that, I mean to differentiate Marxism from Cultural Marxism.

Ok, you seem fucking dumb so let's make it clear ; cultural marxism the conspiracy theory about making people gay bolcheviks doesn't exist. What exists is an analysis of culture, through marxists lenses, which you could call cultural marxism. Historically, it's been mostly carried out by the Frankfurt School. Now read texts from the Frankfurt School then come back to talk about it. Until then, shut the fuck up because you are absolutely ignorant and useless.

That would be the Frankfurt School. The term "Cultural X" is a modern way of discussing something attached to, but beneath the level of ideology or academia. So cultural marxism originally referred to "the new left" in the late 1960's, then Pat Buchanan identified the New Left as originating in the Frankfurt School, and that's how it crossed over into common parlance, especially on the Right. THey are correct to distinguish cultural marxism as the zeitgeist of new left preoccupations/concerns, and how these filter into popular culture. It's not a "conspiracy theory" per se, but Leftists do have a political agenda; calling political agenda "conspiracy" is technically true, in a sense, but hyperbole.

fkin kek

youtube.com/watch?v=ZIO4oSLwK3A

I'm here to talk about the idea of Cultural Marxism. I don't need to have read every book on it… or even any books. Such a claim is like saying one needs to read Mein Kampf to talk about the Nazis.

Firstly, if an idea can't be expressed in conversation without telling people to go away and read books on it then it's not a very solid idea.

Secondly, if you've got an actual criticism of what I've said, share it. Set me straight. Don't give me the non-sequitur.

Also once again to debunk the "it's a nazi myth" argument, if it's a myth why are the lefties in here arguing about it like it's a real thing? Anything can be a 'myth', but nevertheless whether the perpetrators or origin of the ideology is disputed, the ideology exists in some form anyway.

disagreeing that cultural marxism is idpol, not that Holla Forums is opposed to idpol generally.

"Political correctness" has the fuck all to do with the Frankfurt School.

These guys were not about identity politics but about exposing the failures of modernity, capitalism, and liberalism to liberate mankind.

Yeah no that's obvious from reading this thread (provided the thread isn't full of hidden Holla Forumsacks right?).

They were largely about identity politics; it was implicit in all cultural critique and later critical theory. You can't describe Adorno as anything but concerned with identity politics. All politics is identity politics in the era of nationalism.

Holla Forums is a faggot hypocrite about idpol, collectively

And who's fault is that?

People here aren't arguing over cultural marxism the jewish conspiracy existing, they are arguing over what is actually behind the things you people designate as "cultural marxism". As I've said, historically it refers to the Frankfurt School, as a cultural analysis thru marxist lenses. But since the Frankfurt School never believed any of the shit you people designate as cultural marxism, your conspiracy theory holds no ground. What people are wondering whether to call cultual liberalism of PC or Idpol here isn't the original conspiracy theory, or the Frankfurt School, but what you pollacks designate nowadays as cultural marxism, that is, a very diverse set of ideas that are somewhat at the left of the political spectrum. The reason nobody can find a common ground between these is because there is none ; what you guys designate by the name of cutlural marxism is a bunch of incompatible stances on diverse topics. Do you really think a traditionnalist jewish zionist and an arab feminist have much in common ?
Also, I don't need to prove that the conspiracy shit is false, you give me any proof of it being real. I'm not asking you to prove UFO and reptilians aren't real.

The general starting position of critical theory is the same assumption we took from Gramsci's concept of 'hegemony':
Thus, we can make sense of the neo-marxist RETURN to ipdol as central to praxis, eg, 'Laclau and Mouffe's "discursive subject positions".

Humanity's, I would imagine. Tribalism is probably hardwired, and can't be completely suppressed by acculturation, merely channeled.

Seriously, it's cringe to see people on the Left deny the existence of cultural marxism, or put on airs that its "le right wing conspiracy". That's Tumblr-tier discourse. We have every reason to know better. Their writings aren't hard to find, it's all free online:

marxists.org/subject/frankfurt-school/(USER WAS SENT TO GULAG WITH A HUMAN FACE FOR THIS POST)

It's the natural product of capitalism.

Unfortunately he now takes the most blame for this alleged Jewish plot to destroy the West even though he was like the least Jewish of the Frankfurts.

Yeah, that reminds me of what he said to the left opposition "There can be no criticism of Stalin while Hitler is still alive."

nobody is saying cultural marxism doesn't exist, it's cultural marxism as Holla Forums means which doesn't exists.

you anarchist trash don't even have a cultural theory of your own.

geez

These what you consider good musicians are not getting money like the shitty ones. Mass market appeal is fucking them up the ass fanatically

But under communism labor time distribution will insure that you have time to make best music.

plz don't be Orthodox Marxist trash, marx is not a god and he will never be one.
so stop worshiping the man ideas and work from them as you like

your "idea" of "cultural marxism" is a complete nonsense. it's a dumb fantasy and conspiracy theory, and a particularly moronic one at that, as most conspiracy theories, however stupid they might be, are usually based on some sort of internal logic or consistency, while this "cultural marxism" shit is just invented out of whole cloth and has no resemblance to reality

your coming in here, acting like you're some sort of original or learned thinker, and asking us to discuss "cultural marxism" as though it's a serious topic, is like asking archaeologists to discuss the "reality" of the lost city of atlantis, or how space aliens built the pyramids of egpyt

honestly you're just embarrassing and humiliating yourself, and i say that out of sympathy. luckily you're doing it on an anonymous internet forum, where no one can see you, instead of in person in a room full of people

I'd be much more worried about cultural capitalism

what are you trying to say

Adorno wasn't even Jewish according to Jewish Law. Marcuse didn't give two shits about Judaism or Jewish identity either.

Ironically, the most "Jewish" of the Franks was Walter Benjamin, who is barely mentioned in these conspiracy theories at all (even though he's the most cited out of all of them!).

yes you have to

you cannot discuss medicine without knowing medicine and so on

Writings from the key guys in "the Frankfurt school" have nothing to do with promoting social liberalism
They critique cultural capitalism and even things you would consider "degenerate"

This. 'Kultur Bolshevismus' was already a catchphrase in Nazi propaganda back in the 1930s. It refers to the exact same narrative: Jews pushing "degeneracy", etc.

And Benjamin was a piece of shit iirc

Should I read Benjamin? Is he any good/useful?

He's fun.

What? Are you failing your humanities class?

He was a hero
I like adorno but Benjamin was a tragic and admirable figure. Until you die the way he dies plz respeck his shiet

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there we go, was having trouble figuring out how to get that to work

You mean *your* conspiracy theory. From the post you replied to:
People in the thread have already talked in loose terms about what Cultural Marxism is, they didn't seem to be too concerned about it lacking definition. But others have disagreed with the definition. The argument I see is about the definition of Cultural Marxism, and whether it's compatible with Marxism or not (which is what I came here to talk about, as it's interesting to me… and seems to be interesting to people posting here).

I agree (although that doesn't justify it, rape etc. is hardwired). Very rarely conservatives can give me the impression that we don't need the identity politics, for me the question is more about what we care about and are trying to achieve. I see the 'feminist' identity politics as a method to channel tribalism for egalitarianism, however I personally believe this is a really stupid idea on their part and is the cause of a lot of reimagined 'nationalism' you're seeing now. You've awoken the beast. This is what I'm implying with "who's fault is that?".

I don't see what capitalism has to do with it. For me capitalism is the 'neutral state' of things, and I think most Marxists would agree. Marxism is an attempt to "go against the grain" economically (which obviously isn't an argument against Marxism, that's not what I'm saying, although it's why I believe Marxism is necessarily should be subject to more criticism for its ideas).

Nobody's saying whatever you're implying! Well I can say that until you actually specify.

A lot of content creators I know would definitely argue that they wouldn't have time/energy to create alongside a full-time job (many do anyway, but this doesn't contradict what I've said). Also your argument is about good musicians not getting the money they crave… so you're saying take away the thing they crave?

I'm not a Marxist :P

Well yeah I came here because I don't want to ask the room full of people. But not because my argument's bad but because this "anonymous forum" is a good thing for critical debate, I'd just get shouted down by shitlibs and bernie bros IRL.

And yet here we all are talking about it while you just say it doesn't exist… Read the thread please.

It's an ideology, I can talk about it. Why do you think trying to practice Medicine can be conflated with that? Are you a social science student who likes to think your subject requires the same level of training and study as the engineers and natural scientists do in their areas of expertise?

Kabbalah isn't one simple system you can throw under the bus. It's a whole network of concepts interconnected, with thousands of differents stances. You can spend your whole life studying Kabbalah.
Why are you regurgitating antisemitic propaganda user ? Why do you think a random youtube video is a good source ?

kek

sure you can, but the only thing you will achieve is to look like a fool, which the rest of your reply makes you look like

I could tell, but it is of little consequence.

Slave morality.

it's not that "cultural marxism" doesn't exist, it's that what you think "cultural marxism" is doesn't exist

Haha
Great Nietzsche there. I mean, no, this is stupid.
Please tell me, I'm curious, how does respecting somebody your whole life constitutes "slave morality" ? (also, what is this bullshit idealist "genealogy of moral" fuckery doing in an anarchist mouth ?)

I am just kidding, and not an anarchist.

Cool and cool

Okay well looks like this thread is saturated of interesting conversation now.

Thanks everyone for taking part.

I especially enjoyed the bit where before the damage-control "nazi conspiracy" posters came in you guys let the cat out of the bag by talking about it like it's a real ideology that certain Marxists subscribe to.

Also seeing the Holla Forums poster in action was fun.

I wish you all the best in the coming months in the death camps.

your faux intellectualism is laughable. congratulations on learning nothing

You morons realize you're getting baited, right?
You just banned one of your own, after someone screencapped a post and claimed it as their own on 4pol lol fucking clowns

haha when did we lose you, at the "read a book part" of the "there is a difference between cultural marxism as marxist analysis of culture and what the americans right wing means by cultural marxism" ? Don't bother answering we both now it's the former.

nobody cares

but seriusly, you have to have massive autism to take shitposting this seriously

I'm frankly honored how everyone thinks I'm "trying" when I'm really not.

I responded to that rubbish, either read Mein Kampf or bin that argument :^)

all your spies on our board feeding you instant misinformation youre desperately using to ban each other with proves otherwise lol(USER WAS BANNED FOR BEING AN INSUFFERABLE CANUCK)

you're oblivious

that IP had a history of Holla Forums shitposting, but some serious discussion as well. I set the ban time as two hours.

great cold war larping. I don't even know if you're implying I'm a pollack or if you're one, and no I don't care. But you're right, maybe some people do, good for them.

If I make a thread on Holla Forums about whether or not René Guénon bullshit is or not relevant to Nazism I sure as hell will be reading René Guénon. It's a question of context ; Nazism is much larger than just Mein Kampf. Cultural Marxism on the over hand is either a nazi conspiracy starting with the frankfurt school, the actual analysis of the frankfurt school itself, or an incoherent bunch of ideas right wingers don't like nowadays. It's obvious from that that the most important thing to read here is the frankfurt school. And no, you cannot learn anything meaningful on any subject without reading a book. That's why all good theory threads mention tons of book.
But I'm losing my time talking to you anyway.

mein kampf is fucking shit-tier, it's literally emo-tier

LMAO

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Seriously how do you know this little about Marxism
Capitalism is natural and was historically necessary just the same way as feudalism was natural and historically necessary and as socialism is natural and historically necessary. There is a dialectic progression through history based on the definite production relations man must enter into around the material conditions of society.

I have to disagree with you there. If everyone does a "utilitarian" job then we work much less overall, and what art and culture was once the province of work and obligation now becomes wholly part of one's leisure. Entertainment and culture simply cease to be things that people produce under duress and often in spite of personal profit, and instead become fully voluntary associations. If there's any one historical lesson from gamergate and the years prior, it's that the pursuit of private profit is a seriously corrupting influence on the quality of art and entertainment.

As for your original question, though, David North sums it up best:

If by "Cultural Marxism" you mean "my crazy conspiracy theory about how the Jews are trying to destroy western civilization in order to impose communism", consider that IdPol is rhetoric that divides the working class and makes a Communist revolution harder rather than easier.

Marxism and "Cultural Marxism" share nothing in common. The second is a term invented by Right-Wing conspiratards. Marxism isn't applicable on a cultural level, whatever a "cultural level" means.

This.

No.

Cultural Marxism is compatible with both Fascism and National "Socialism", but not with Marxism.

They don't share any patterns. The very basis of Frankfurt school rejects Marxist approach. Instead of material conditions determining behaviour of people, we get the idea that it is propaganda that determines ir.

They are not Marxists. They are right-wingers who use Socialist rhetoric to pretend to be Left - just like right-wingers in Germany did (yes, Nazi).

Maybe if read more books from that publisher, this kind of dumb ass thread right here wouldn't constantly be clogging the catalogue's first page.

This is an icepick-worthy offense among actual Marxists. Whom have you been talking with?

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wew

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There is no such thing as "cultural Marxism". It's a conspiracy theory haphazardly borrowed from the Nazis.

The biggest difference is that one is a real ideology, whereas the other is merely the figment of the paranoiac imagination of the right.

There are no Marxists that push "Cultural Marxism"

If you want to piss yourself over critical theory and everything else you don't like about postmodernism, take it to a philosophy group, don't take it over here and try to associate it with our movement.

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Cultural Kantianism master race reporting in