Alright Holla Forums, what do you propose be done?
Basically what's your programe? Lets try to be serious this time around. Lets assume for once that us fascists, nationalists and so on let you run around and actually run shit
Because although we judge it unwise, lets just say for kicks and shits we actually do it.
So what's next?
Hard mode:
No: we hang you from lamp-posts
- armed international workers union,
- every worker in every part of the world will be granted a percentage of whatever company he is working for
- profit banking prohibited
- lower the population to a more stable number,, perhaps 5 billion
Not sure if trolling or serious
Anyways, what purpose would an armed IWA have? Abusing their spouses?
Am trying to think big here, hence why I offered the whole deal of having commies run the shit, just to see what they would actually do.
Just for science's sake
Sorry, bud. It can't happen that way. As soon as the bourgeoisie realize their position is threatened will throw a hissy fit and manipulate you into trying to topple us. You'll be convinced we're trying to kill the white race or turn your kids gay or something. Doesn't matter how they do it, but they'll get you to do what they want. And you'll follow through with it like obedient dogs.
So we are too stupid for this sort of stuff? Is that what you are trying to say?
Right now it is the nationalist and somewhat pseudofascist folk that are doing the heavy lifting against the elites worldwide, mind you.
Maybe if you were more mindful we could actually get you people somewhere instead of leaving you waiting another century or two for your so called revolution
Stopping porky
Organize worker cooperatives, then expand from thereon.
We have the tools, people just have to get off their asses and use them.
Speaking as a 3rd positionist: I have no problem with nationalists or even fascists per se. Just as long as you allow us to self-organize, manage our cooperatives by ourselves, respect our right to bear arms and vent our opinions amongst ourselves.
If that can be agreed on I will gladly join you in the goosestepping.
Then you are doing it wrong, what you need isn't guns.
What you need is an Army. Because they'll come to you with one, whether we are defending you or not. In any case you'll want an army more than just guns.
That's a done deal, our real big beef with people is them wanting to take -our- ill gotten goods, guns and so on and so forth. And a bunch of other things that most would concede are mostly conspiratorial theory talk stuff
No, because then military action against this army is justified, since its an army
Porky attacking workers directly has direct ideological implications
Not necessarily stupid, just unaware of how class works and too caught up in identity politics to notice.
Yeah, yelling at liberals and trying to get stronger border controls is a real slap in the face of the elites. How will they recover?
What are you going on about?
It depends entirely on context, but I'm going to assume that we've somehow taken power in the United States. I hardly speak for everybody here, but I will lay out the policies I think are most urgent.
First move would be to collectivize industry - remove the current owners from their positions and make every enterprise a worker-owned and managed enterprise. They would determine democratically their leadership and work out for themselves what benefits and working conditions they most need. Studies have consistently shown that the cooperative model increases worker satisfaction and productivity. This is the model we would pursue.
Workers in certain industries would, however, have to fulfill infrastructural development plans handed down by the administration in consultation with teams of scientists and other experts. The goal of these development programs would be to steadily move to a less oil dependent infrastructure, transition to renewable energy, enhance local food production and increase automation. Oil is an unsustainable basis for an industrial society. We must use this window of opportunity to move to a more sustainable system or face catastrophe.
This development program would vastly increase employment and would likely raise the popularity of the regime. Like the Soviet Union, we would fund regimes and movements consistent with the above objectives. As with modern China, we would exercise geo-economics - penalizing states that deviate from the program by denying them funding and trade. This is a more efficient policy than imperialist intervention.
Do you think they care? I tend to think they won't.
Am not a believer in people behaving like people, that's why I am most on the side of being a fascist than being a commie. They'll behave like sheep all the way to the slaughter house.
You are being patronizing
Work on that message then
At least we are trying to get our priorities through and walking one step forward and a few backwards in some senses.
When was the last time Communists actually got something?
They should, because capitalism has been able to keep functioning because its ideological superstructure has not been destroyed
Capitalism thrives on the worker's alzheimer YOu can only keep a $$$nationalist$$$ façade for so long before everyone starts asking themselves why is every social movements end in repression
First man in space was a communist. That shit should last us a long time.
Yeah, they should. But in case they don't, I wouldn't want all my effort to go down in fire. I would arm my people to the teeth and teach them how to fight back to some degree at least.
Trying to live on other people's good will is not exactly a winning strategy
Not sure how I feel about collectivization of industries, but for the sake of experimentation lets go with it, at least partly to begin with, maybe nationalization?
Your second picture is all wrong. Fascism actually gave you the technology to do your space program. Capitalism also 'gave' you the nuke. I could go on and on… but its a waste of breath and not what I want to spend the thread on
Also I shiver to think of what are your priorities if you think just putting a man in space actually does for the good of the workers
I won't compromise on the worker-owned model.
I just don't want a repeat of the big famines and disasters that other collectivizations have resulted in
You gotta acknowledge some of the limitations of the deed, at least in the accelerated attempt
Syndicalism seems like the only effective way tbqh
I don't think anything else could make the full transition without stalling or reversing somewhere along the process.
Expansion into space is an inevitability. My priority is the preservation of the human species. Our planet is in a precarious position owing to the destructiveness of capitalism and advances in space travel technology increase the likelihood of long-term human survival.
There is no point in regular warfare anymore, is 2016. Any ground won will be lost to the ideological repressive side of the capital, happened in china, happened in the USSR is now happening with cuba and so on
Capitalism will break itself
I see your point, but unless a decisive breakthrough is reached, I have my doubts in space actually saving us. We gotta live with what we've got on earth, am afraid.
I don't quite understand what you mean about China, the USSR and Cuba
And I don't quite buy the idea that capitalism will break itself alone. I am more pessimistic.
That's why I suggested the idea that at least in theory… -we- the forces of reaction, could theoretically be the ones actually overthrowing the established order.
Except for one minor detail: we have no discernible programe. We have no overriding reason to exist other than to react to an enemy, whether its real or imaginary, and given how capitalism has literally made us outdated relics I came out with this little theoric idea.
China, USSR and cuba lost to neoliberalism, not only did they failed miserably with their own population, but got absolutely fucked in the ideological war
Lmao fam
A lot easier said than done. Most "leftists" nowadays are just as guilty of it. The CPUSA openly supports Black Lives Matter ffs
Does the New Deal count if it was unintentional?
I'm working on that assumption also, which is why I proposed the above infrastructural development program. I think space travel advances the species but if I had to choose between it or development, I would choose development.
Hey, I didn't utter the word 'achieve' by no figment of your imagination.
I just suggested we would rather go down fighting into the night instead of being replaced by robots and then culled like cattle
What would that accomplish?
I think it'd be easier for a 40 year old man to transition into a passable woman than it would be for avowed socialists to form a functional state
...
At the very least filling our ego-meters one last time that we didn't bow to -any- tyrants, like most of us promised to not to (before communist tyrants was the original idea, but I guess its just gonna play out ironically in a different way)
Am being quite frank with my pessimism and what I think of our chances at this pace if something isn't done and done soon
Nobody is going to be culled. Automation under socialism will liberate you. Only under capitalism does automation make you redundant.
Nice dubs and… MODS, MODS, MODS. What did the pupper do to you other than being male? MODS
So I've noticed all these socialists can't form any proper argument, all they do is resort to calling out fascist-bro over here on every little thing he says after he calls them out.
OP already destroyed the bunkerism dude and left him as ashes with nothing to say for himself.
I'm proud of you OP, you're destroying all their commie arguments on their own turf.
I don't think you are on the same thread as me, nor contributing…
Either way, am going to sleep, I'll be back in the morning probably
...
but you already know that we want to give all the white women to Africa….
Digital theft and piracy of money.
You foiled our plans to create the perfect soldier
This is the correct answer
why isnt this being done already?
one thing I'd like to add though:
Also, how can this idea be spread?
I'd inmediatly abolish the state and establish full direct democracy in towns and neighborhoods.
private property wouldn't even last a year
How to get there? There's various ways: participating in the bourgeois "democratic" elections would be one, Libertarian municipalism is tempting too.
BTW while I think the state should be abolished I'd also like to maintain some sort of Central Forum to maintain a non-standing army, discuss solutiong to things like Global Warming, etc.
Ideal situation: The work day falls to zero due to automation, the state withers away and private property and money with it.
Likely situation: As automation increases and the class of dependents on the state grows in number, the international ruling class will tire of caring for them, organize, and carry out mass killings, leaving only themselves. The resulting society is effectively Communist, no more production for profit will occur.
Ah, you're tolerating scenarios in which, in an imagined unity, you _let_ us "run around" because they would mean you could actually do so..
Don't fool yourself, capitalism is a prison run by the inmates: you're no warden.