Help me out here, Leftypol

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this was like in 2008 when i was there. there were vending machines in Tel Aviv by the beach nightclubs that had porno dvds in them. Was impressed.

We have a Palestine thread on this board already.

But here's the TL;DR version: the left prioritizes Palestine over all other international issues (the Kurds, Kashmir, the Balkans, Chechnya, Ukraine/Novorossiya) because the left feels Palestine/Israel is the one issue where it still has a stake and can "win".

In reality, the Palestinian resistance, like most other forms of anti-imperialist struggle, died when the USSR did. Palestinians today barely struggle at all and many of them are happy to get work permits in Dubai or Saudi or migrate to the west. The Palis aren't going to win and that's just something the left must accept.

Ok so they are on the same side as Ellison I would think

It barely exists anymore. Most Palestinians are happy supporting Fatah. Hamas isn't as powerful as a lot of propaganda makes it seem.

Seems like class war to me, I'm sure those starving Palestinians with no land are good cheap workers

Most likely. But very few Palestinians in the West Bank are "starving" (Ramallah and Nablous are quite modern). Gaza, on the other hand, is a complete shithole thanks to the blockade.

Yeah, but then the ADL comes out and slams him, and I'm forced to explain to them why the ADL sucks (again.)

Most of the settlements aren't going anywhere. Places like Ma'ale Adumim have more residents than most towns in mainland Israel, and religious settlements like Beitar Illit have 60% of their residents under age 18 (meaning their birthrates are sky-high).

maybe because they've been struggling for over 6 decades and tend to get bombed and murdered when they try

Well, the younger generation is certainly sick of the fighting, which is why most of the young men are picking flight over fight.

I recognize the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle but honestly it's hard to outright say Israel shouldn't exist, anti-Semitic sentiment is on the rise and it's clear that the people living in Israel now would not be integrated into Palestine without significant suffering to them. BDS is infested with anti-semitism and conspiratorial nonsense.

What's your socialist persuasion op?

started out basic bernie socialism, now reading a lot of chomsky, marx, chapo trap house, and stiner.

no it isn't. no state "should" exist. they exist through force and violence. should has nothing to do with it

Speaking as someone who worked with the BDS Movement for a few years (2009-2012ish) I can say most of what consists of "BDS activism" is a complete joke. Yes, boycotting settlement products is a legitimate thing to do, but walking into a Whole Foods and dumping Israeli hummus and couscous on the floor in the name of Palestine solidarity is pathetic (especially since regular WORKERS have to clean up after your stunt and take the blame from management if they don't). And how the fuck does boycotting or picketing outside the performance of an Israeli musician do anything?

i agree in general but if that musician is an apologist or propagandist for jewish terrorism, i don't have a problem with their performances being disrupted

Most Israeli artists are actually leftist. They don't usually talk politics though, but I'd hardly call them "apologists" for Israeli war crimes.

Stop glorifying the IDF and Israel

i know, i'm just saying in the event that. relatedly there are jewish-american actors/personalities who make apologetics for israel, and i think it good to speak against that

How the hell could Palestine go socialist when most Palestinians are still stuck in a feudal and tribalist mentality? They'd be entirely dependent on the technology Israelis produce.

I think you should read what Orwell wrote on anti semitism (even tho he was a disgusting traitor etc etc)

His essays are often gold

orwell.ru/library/articles/antisemitism/english/e_antib

TL;DR Is that since even during nazi rule anti semitism still existed, he points out how it still exists and is rampant

Just tell them zionism doesn't always equal judaism, then name drop the jewish socialists that have changed the world and they should shut the fuck up unless they might be genuinely anti semites

plfp is dead

yes, as we all know, jews are still barred from hotels, universities, neighbourhoods, owning businesses, certain professions, positions of power and influence. not to mention the frequent pogroms, synagogue firebombings, and forced expulsions. truly, the 1930s never ended

You have obviously never been to Turkey. Yes, Turkey is allegedly Israel's biggest Muslim ally but anti-Jewish sentiment over there is huge.

t. ex-bf is half Turkish Jew and many of his cousins still live in Izmir

This is just fucking idpol fucking leftist movements up, like always. Don't give a shit, Jewnon. Israel and Palestine don't matter right now. Try to spread class consciousness. That is what we need.

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read the essay? It sort of convinced me to take anti semitism seriously, always

shock!

get serious, please

Turkey is extremely modern as far as Islamic countries go. Istanbul might as well be a European city.

Speaking of Europeans, anti-semitism is VERY high over there too.

the same can be said for tel aviv. yet it's still full of raving lunatics desperate to nuke iran and invade lebanon (again). do you have an argument?

Was Orwell Jewish? He's certainly got the relentless "even those that say they oppose antisemitism are probably antisemites too" paranoia down pat

Or they could just give all Palestinians Israeli citizenship along with the return of their lands. This would, of course, necessitate treating Palestinians as individuals when they commit acts of terrorism instead of bombing entire parts of the country. I don't see why Israel never sends in the infantry first and always resorts to bombs.

that would run the risk of jewish troops being killed. israel would much rather bomb or fire artillery at people from a safe distance. can't risk another humiliation like 2006

I know that's what they do. I'm just saying if they were honest about their reasons for bombing, they would have used the infantry first. I don't know about Israel, but my experience in the infantry tells me there should be no lack of eager men willing to kick down doors and shoot the right people. Of course, we were misled, but we never put ourselves over innocents.

there's very few of those. unless you count children and the elderly

Some nice logic you've got there.

not as nice as your strawman :)

Maybe the IDF has a different ideology. Unfortunately Israel gets more and more ideology similar to the Nazis every year. Also, the guy in your pic is clearly not a combat soldier and/or doesn't know how to shoulder that rifle. He's trying to hold it like you would a machine gun. The rifle also has no optic. So you can count him out if anyone ever thought of him as a sniper or marksman. Probably just a pog, like 99% of any army.

Why doesn't the left realize whether it's one or two states the Palestinians are fucked either way? A one-state solution will NOT decolonize their lands since Israelis would still control most of the better farm lands AND have the monopoly on wealth and knowledge. The Palestinians would need to conduct a 10-year cultural revolution in order to get back everything the Zios stole from them, which would entail an outright de-Judaizing.

The achievements of isreal are worth every worthless Palestinian sandnigger man, woman, and child.

Holy shit, it's not like you people actually care, you just don't want to hear about it. If isreal is smart they would have killed them or forced them out on gunpoint so this fiasco wouldn't go on any longer and the Palestinians would go to fucking Egypt or turkey or Saudi and people would forget about the whole fucking thing

Maybe this is one time when genocide was the efficient thing to do, but back then they were obviously a bit antsy about that and if they try it now they'll get huge blowback

gr8 b8 m8 r8 8/8

there was a human rights report (think it was amnesty int) that came out after the 2008 slaughter in gaza; in it the jewish soldiers described their actions as being like "kids frying ants with a magnifying glass," how they encountered virtually no resistance from hamas or any other person, and how they basically just demolished the place. israel's ideology is that palestinians aren't human (actually the official position is that palestinians don't exist, but that's another subject), so it doesn't matter what you do to them

that soldier didn't actually kill children as he claimed but he still made that tweet in order to harass, terrorise and intimidate palestinians and others. that he wasn't actually a sniper isn't the point (he was a combat engineer if you're interested)

hello Holla Forums. or is it jidf? hard to tell these days

triggered Holla Forumscuck detected

mad your spooks are shit, faggot?

lol, way to buck the stereotypes there shlomo

Since you're obviously a Paliboo, I want to know what you believe can be done by leftists living in the west to help the Palestinians.

I'll reiterate I've worked with BDS in the past and know how ineffective those tactics can be. Full-scale sanctions on Israel would be marvelous but there's no way in hell the US would go through with that (especially not when Trump and BIbi fund each others' campaigns). Divestments did a lot to end apartheid in South Africa but ultimately it all came down to the US no longer needing APA as an ally in the Cold War. Most Americans couldn't give two shits about the Palestinians so "public opinion" probably won't do all that much.

Someone from the other thread said the Palestinians are a hopeless case, because their resistance is the equivalent of watching a mother mouse try to fight off a giant snake as it moves to swallow her children. I think the analogy is apt. At this point, the Palestinians are better off migrating to the west and getting involved in western politics and community organizing in order to sway American/Canadian/British foreign policy.

same reason i care about all suffering people (including myself); i hate suffering and want to end it.

Occupation of Palestine sucks but I don't get university trots obsession with it specifically.

This is a common theme with jews.

Support liberalism and multicutrlism in the west, support the genocidal ethnostate known as Israel in the east.

so pretty much, both the left and right hate your guts now.

congrats.

you done it.

i'm not an anything-"boo." i don't have to like palestinians to acknowledge their grievances and situation
i'm not sure there's a whole lot for individuals in the west to do, other than spreading awareness and propaganda. education basically. since '08 there has been a significant shift in the way israel is covered and discussed in the west, and it would be good to maintain and further that shift

imo, the only realistic/pragmatic "solution" is the one that pretty much the whole world's been behind since the '70s (except u.s. and israel, of course, and occasional cuck states like canada and australia, and south-seas irrelevances like palau and nauru): two state program; palestinian state with eastern jerusalem as its capital; full peace treaty with israel; just settlement of refugee question; and mutual/consensual land swaps. there are some other issues but those are the central ones. as i mentioned, everyone supports this solution, it's just that the u.s. and israel have been blocking it for decades. how to change this, i don't know. i think a central part of it is up to the palestinians to stand up and demand it, even though they're in a shitty situation and they've been beaten into the ground, so i know how hard it would be.

FYI the two-state solution didn't "die", it was stillborn.

i didn't say die anywhere

just assure them that this is our movement and once we establish socialism and solidify our power we won't need israel anymore. we won't let the soviet union happen again; this time we'll retain control

Well I'd say it's a pretty consistent position, just one they are not too honest about: they wish to promote Jewish nationalism/Zionism, which they see as at odds with white nationalism.

It's like how George Lincoln Rockwell spoke to the Nation of Islam once.

Fatah?

There are leftists in Fatah but the party over all is reformist and social democratic.

not really? rockwell and the anp supported noi and black separatism movements/ideology because it was consistent with their own white separatism. that is they might not like blacks but they're ok with blacks not wanting to live with whites

a consistent position from zionists would be to respect white nationalism as long as it respected israel's nationalism in kind

Or, for Zionists to respect islamo-fascists for the same reason.

Well, there was that little dust-up between the two in the 30s and 40s…

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that's the idea

no it isn't, the IDF was bombing it just last month. that's proof it's still strong.

Bombing them over what? The IDF also arrests Palestinian children throwing rocks at settlers - so what?

The PFLP that exists today is really no better than the IWW that exists today.

There is nothing inherently leftist about Palestinian nationalism.

Is Israel an apartheid state? Yes. Are the Palestinians occupied and suffering? Yes. Does Israel need to be held accountable? Absolutely. But people on the left should have zero illusions.

There are Palestinian Marxists and anarchists, but there are even more Palestinians who are nothing more than bourgeois nationalists or religious fundamentalists (Hamas and their supporters, even though they're very small in the West Bank). Let's not forget most of these "national liberation" struggles from the 20th century resulted in nothing more than neocolonialism and semi-fascism. If the Palestinians succeed in winning back the entirety of their homeland, who is to say that state wouldn't end up becoming a neocolony? Israel is, after all, highly dependent on American investments as it is, so who is to say the Palestinian NB won't sell out their people to attract more capitalist money?

Gee, it's like fucking Americans being liberal and conservative. Who'd have thunk it?

kek