Sick of leftists defending hijabis

Fuck this bullcrap. Labeling a garment clearly associated with a gendered division of labor and the reproduction of hierarchical relations of production doesn't change its real-world societal function. This is philosophical idealism and racialist metaphysics being appropriated by leftists for the sake of "anti-imperialism" or "national liberation". There are plenty of women in the Muslim World who desire liberation from patriarchy or (neo)colonialism who refuse to wear traditional garb or revert to the social hierarchies of their people's past - why embrace an ideology that's de facto religious chauvinist just to look cosmopolitan and inclusive?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=k7RyVmZWuzs
youtube.com/watch?v=GHyvKaPLnnw
youtube.com/watch?v=1qnPCumM5Xc
islamqa.info/en/13363
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

What's worse is when masochistic liberals opt to legalize the niqab, which is a cloth that a very small minority of Muslim women have to wear, as a means to coddle them all.

It first started in Britain and France, and the last election campaign in Canada had it as an issue. Fuck me.

it looks cute tought

Yeah, and all we have to do is look at history to see how many of those "national liberation" movements ultimately lead to neo-colonialism and semi-fascism. Monsters like Suharto, Mobutu Sese Seko, and Pinochet were also hardcore nationalists.

It's literally just a piece of cloth. No one should waste time giving anything resembling a shit about it.

I don't care about it. Let them wear it if they like. It's like a fucking scarf on your head.

People only get butthurt about it because it's associated with Islam. Should we ban nuns wearing it too?

its a fucking piece of fabric they put on their heads. yeah, it's cultural, just like t-shirts are cultural. quit masking your xenophobia in some kind of progressive pro-womens rights rhetoric and care about some actual issue.

uh source?

Absolutely. Communism has always been anti-clerical and part of our program is to wipe out the religious mythologies of the past. In fact, nuns are even worse than traditionalist Muslim women.

Unfortunately, the failure of secular and actual left forces allowed Islamic fundamentalism to portray itself as the main form of resistance allowing it to rise drastically much as the destruction of any actual left in the United States (excepting phony liberal "leftists") allowed the alt right to rise. When there is no actual leftist possibility available people will get sucked into nationalism and religious fundamentalism.

Relevant video:
youtube.com/watch?v=k7RyVmZWuzs

Not to mention, Arab leftists used to despise Islamic garb. Women in Nasser's Egypt thought the hijab was prudish and ugly.

Pretty sure OP's rant isn't aimed at Muslims but at leftists.

I agree 100%
Why is religious conservatism positive when it's an exotic group?
It's orientalist to think so, and probably kinda racist as well tbh

What's orientalist is thinking Muslim women are too backward to decide for themselves what they want to do or wear.

What's also orientalist is claiming feudal hierarchies possess some kind of emancipatory potential.

There is of course no such thing as a linear progress to history. In the case of the Muslim world it seems like things are going backwards - as countries get more and more reactionary.

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I've never heard of leftists "defending" the hijab. I've heard of leftists criticizing bans on hijab as populist nonsense and claiming that the choice is for women to make, but never of being actual supporters of the practice.

I just defend it because there's no reason for Muslim women to be singled out.

In fact, I wouldn't mind the hijab being banned, but it would have to be a part of a more general secularization law, that would also include,

When you poll them, a lot of even the women say that.

Of course. But my point still remains: when the Arab World was at its most leftist, it shunned traditional garments.

>>>/reddit/

Nice rationalisation. The difference between though a burka and a cross is that men haven't used crosses to illegally cross borders. The burka is potentially dangerous. Banks don't let you enter with a bike helmet on cause it obstructs the face. Why should any exception be made on religious grounds?

"Hijabi feminism" is just another cheap, postmodern gimmick primarily used by ivory tower leftist academics thinking it can break the cycle of capital through disruption.

The truth is, wearing a hijab as a form of protest against capitalist/colonial dress standards is as bullshitty as wearing a Che shirt or keffiyeh. Even more bullshitty, because unlike the latter two, the hijab isn't explicitly communist or anti-capitalist and could easily be taken over by reactionaries (which it has been).

I also question as to whether or not the hijab style we see so often is indigenous to most of the Muslim World or if it's primarily an Arab thing. I know the Pakistani style is much looser and shows a lot more hair and Indonesian and Malaysian women didn't used to wear it at all. My guess is, it has everything to do with Saudi-funded mosques in these places spreading not just Wahhabi ideology but Arab chauvinism too.

The burqa controversy is the most ridiculous non-issue I've heard of. In France, it is estimated that less than 2,000 women wear the burqa — that's like less than 0.01% of the estimated female Muslim population. And still, it predictably spawned a nation-wide shit-flinging contest back in 2009.

Can't speak for France but it is certainly more than that over here (UK). And my point stands. Why should a special accommodation be made in law for such a small section of the population?

Muslims think of themselves as special snowflakes moreso than any other religious group. I've been around fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Jews and neither one of them demands special accommodations the way Muslims do.

I think those are legit stylish though.

Orthodox Jews are notorious for being triggered by the presence of women next to them.

Most religious Jews are not ultra-orthodox though.

this

sick of the left's pandering to Muslims

All three of them?

Obviously not, just like only a tiny minority of Muslim women wear the burqa.

People need to understand the difference between protecting a tiny minority from neo-nazis, railing against imperialism in general, and supporting an oppressive nation overall. Most leftists support the tiny minority of muslims in their nation, against the bigotry and scapegoating that they face from the extreme right. Most leftists support the tiny nations that are being wrecked and robbed by imperialists, despite their many internal flaws. Most leftists do not support the dictatorial power players in the middle east, or the assholes who think that "no compulsion in religion" is more of a guideline, than an actual rule.

Remember, Saudi Arabia and Iran are a world away. What they are doing, has little to do with the muslim lady down the street. She doesn't control them, and they don't control her. Fighting against her is not fighting against them.

I don't care what wymn are wearing, but what kind of sick SJW cunt actually says this?

you mean liberals

i'd gulag anyone that wears or agrees with this barbarian reactionary middle-age practice

OP is islamophobic.

Finally, a nazifag said something right in Holla Forums.

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Some people are really quick to operate on dichotomy basis, that is

It's not even the burqa. A LOT of Muslims demand westerners go out of their way to accommodate them with things like prayer rooms, making sure all the food in the high school cafeteria is halal, etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=GHyvKaPLnnw

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Funny thing is, the Bolsheviks banned the niqab in Central Asia and the Caucus. Atatürk, while anti-communist, banned it in Turkey. Papa Assad banned it in Syria. Pretty sure Nasser banned it in Egypt for a while too.

Assad and Nasser are/were anti-communists, too.

They were still anti-Zionist and anti-imperialist.

uh huh
Next thing you'll say is that he's secular, with all that leader/state worship he has to inculcate into the masses so that his shitty regime holds. All totalitarian autocrats are cut from the same cloth

So what? He's openly anti-Zionist and the Ba'ath Party has always promoted an anti-imperialist line.

"Anti-imperialism", whatever that is actually supposed to mean nowadays, is not necessarily connected to socialism.

Imperialism is the primary contradiction. Of course it matters.

so are most of the majority Muslim states, I bet you're going to defend them too when their governments are much more shittier than the West.
It's one thing to be anti-Zionist (most Jews are overwhelmingly secular and don't believe the messianic belief that they deserve a land, and there were lots of Jewish lefitsts that went to jail for standing up to the clandestine buildings on Palestinian lands), and it's another to want to eradicate Israel and don't support its right to exist, which is a completely other issue entirely.

For all I can tell Egypt was the only Arab state to have recognized Israel, which speaks volumes about the ideologies of the Arabs. None of them are secular or anti-imperialist, they want to put oil into the fire and just see Israel completely brought to its knees (and as long as their medieval holy relics are preserved).

While we can say none of them are anti-imperialist, they're still run by incompetent hereditary dictators who promote worship of the state and the leader, with an occasional whiff of religious worship, to consolidate their power. Any questioning of their rule or meddling in other countries (a.k.a. Syria's meddling in Lebanon), is brought back with swift respite.

The belief that Ba'athism and the shitty ideologies promoted in the Arab world are better left alone because they can do no better are constantly perpetuated by petty apologists.

But hijabis are cute OP.

Instead of trying to appease Muslims by giving them loads of narc supply ("ZOMG your hijab is such a gorgeous symbol of anti-colonial intersectional feminism!!!") they should be taking advantage of the general distrust and disgust Muslims have of the West and channel it towards furthering our goals. Yes, only a small number of Muslims "snap" like the OSU attacker or Charlie Hebdo shooters, but the vast majority of Muslims do harbor anti-western sentiments given that they know full well how western interference is what caused their grievances in the first place. Most of them are also heavily anti-modernity because they see it as infringing upon their traditional religious and family structures. So my question for the left is, why not take advantage of that? Don't coddle these people, organize them.

Believing Israel as a "right to exist" IS Zionism idiot.

Honest question, what do you mean by primary contradiction?

I am part of an american Muslim community in the united states and I don't notice this at all. As a whole we are basically liberal "cultural Muslims".

Those people who do these attacks are isolated and not usually even part of the community. in fact, most of us are extra careful not to say anything anti-west. Once I asked the imam about hezbollah and he says its bad since violence is never justified

wait sorry, I just realized you may not have been talking about western muslims

I most certainly am talking about western Muslims. I don't know where you're at, but the Muslims in my community (who are mostly Somalis and Pakistanis like the OSU guy) are highly suspicious of the west. Granted, these are people coming from countries currently being bombed by the US as we speak.

No it isn't, one can apply Occam's razor to that.
Zionism is an ethno-nationalist quasi-religious ideology, but it managed to produce a somewhat okay democratic state with independent courts and rule of law, with separation of state from religion which can't be said about the countries in the region.

One can be anti-Zionist and support Israel's right to exist, but clearly you've never read the history.

Besides, I have more faith in a people who were the first to repudiate their own Abrahamic texts and origins (a.k.a. the people who produced Marx, Spinoza, Freud and Einstein who clearly were skeptics and earned that right) while 1 billion Muslims are still wallowing and can't so much say that their own holy book could have had parts or hadiths added after Muhammed's divine recitation (something the Christians have long accepted for their own Bible).

well that probably makes a difference since most here have been here for quite a while or are first generation.

are you saying that their countries wouldn't be shitholes if the US never "meddled" in their own country?

Would love to read the wonderful thinkers and scholars that Pakistan and Somalia have produced?
Who is their Rousseau, Freud, Tolstoy, Voltaire? For a combined population of almost 200 million, they must have produced something of value to add to the thought of humanity.

So reductive. Sure, the ideas it represents and perpetuates and the women that are forced to wear it don't matter.

1st i have seen more women wearing hijab in France than Algeria. muh heritage

2nd there's nothing wrong about hijab. Call it an headscarve and it's a piece of clothing like pants or shirt.

3rd european people wore headscarves for centuries. Nothing muslim about it.

They don't exist for your viewing pleasure you fuck. They're mot sexual commodity.

It's still dumb as fuck to call it "anti-colonial". That was OP's point.

What makes you think there's only one interpretation of Qur'an and Hadith?

If the Qur'an can be used to promote reactionary ideology, why can't it also be used to promote revolutionary communist ideology?

Nobody here is arguing that it is. He's preaching to the choir

You sound upset.

She makes me doki doki in my kokoro

Probably because Muhammed never said shit like "it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven".

Jesus also said "the poor will always be with us."

I am upset. I hate men and masculinity, fuck this

why not both.

hijab is a non issue, literally a barely hidden dig at Muslims under the false excuse of women's right and equality.

thats a BS argument and everyone know it.
the truth is that the vast majority of muslim women wear it because they want to.

this may come as a shocker to you but women can too be religious nuts.

t.someone who lived for 21 years in a muslim country

Have you considered not being such a faggot?

it greatly upsets me that I find this so attractive. Must be my inherent male tendencies that wants a woman who is under my complete control that causes it.

Muslims have a good thing going about that tbh

Ironically, the failure of colonialism to take over the ME completely and civilize them is the reason why they're so uppity now. If we'd converted them to Christianity they would have remained peaceful

The full quote is "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."

youtube.com/watch?v=1qnPCumM5Xc

Leftists should have no time for religion in general.

Ban the hijab, burn every church. Get it all off the face of this planet.

lel
banning clothing and personal expression is always reactionary, whether you're a Wahhabi cunt or French. Feminism is done in schools, not in malls.

holy shit a tankie has a good opinion

i just like to add that its considered haram to relocate to a non muslim country :^)

so if a muslim act like a religious fucktard around you, you should remind him about this fact.
with some luck, he may actually get the fuck out of your county.

nothing wrong with being submissive to your man.

But I'm Christian, fam.

The majority of women there are expected and forced to wear it, not always directly through violence. But the number of women who actually choose to wear it is very small.

t. Arab woman living in a muslim country

I agree that a lot of people take on the issue to justify their hate for islam without actually giving a shit about it but tolerating the ideals behind it is still wrong.

Both the burqa and the thong are weapons to patriarchy. Hence why Marxists should reject them both and focus on real struggles of women.

What scriptures support this?

No, it's personal freedom.

This is a complete non-issue. Who gives a fuck about a piece of clothing?

But the personal is political. Ignoring an issue means supporting the ideas it perpetuates. I don't think it should be outlawed but we should stop trying to normalize and support it.

The issue isn't that women choose to wear it. The issue is that the women who wear it do so out of loyalty to a backwards, reactionary ideology rather than a left-wing one. We have NEVER had a communist variant of Islam; even Shariati's views became appropriated by the fundamentalists.

A Turkish dude got a Nobel Prize in literature recently, it's mostly a language barrier really, stop being an Orientalist cunt.

That fucking meme again.

K.

Not weapons but tools, they only have any meaning in a cultural context, and that cultural context is most efficiently changed materially, by giving women access to education, job opportunities and personal values and goals similar to men's.
You're attacking the symptoms instead of the illness.

do you have any study to back that up ?
pics or it didn't happen.

thats a fair point, but guess what there are allot of people believing in backward and ideologies. you can't just impose them not to (at least not in a "free" country)

islamqa.info/en/13363
its actually common knowledge among Muslims.

It's not just girls who have come to want to use these things (via the poverty that is Islam), but also persons who wear them because of social pressure. Like so as not to have "problems" on the street.

It's opposition to Islam that shouldn't even be an issue.

You're an idiot, fam.

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I do not disagree.

Reminder you alienate Christian comrades by taking an "let's just get rid of all religions lmao" approach to this.

Christianity is an emancipatory anti capitalist religion while Islam is a reactionary religion created by a capitalist warlord.

So stop this stupid and reductive anti religous stance and don't include Christianity in your rants against islam to please your radical leftist friends because they get antsy and feel racist if you focus on Islam

it hurts

I'd like to say that the clothes those women in OP's pic are wearing are sexy as fuck and more women should wear them.

That being said, I also want to state that religions are spooks and shit, and Islam is a specially shitty one.

Thank you for your attention.

This.
It's incredibly annoying, actually. I used to hear Muzzy students at my old high-school bitch and moan about people having to touch alcohol and pork in clerk jobs. I would tell them not to be clerks, and they would still somehow contort it into a rights issue. It isn't. They can quit their faggy religion at any time.

Capitalism didn't even exist when Christianity came into being.

Capitalism didn't even exist when Mohammad was alive.
Because of your worthless post I'm going to shitpost about Christianity all over the site and do everything I can to prevent its spread.

Yo, let's just eliminate religion, fam. Lmao. Get fucked. Appealing to being an idiot isn't going to make me feel sorry for you. Stop believing stupid shit.

my word

Big Mo wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty and unified tribal chieftains under proto-humanist ideals to form one of the biggest Empires at the time.
A much more revolutionary prophet, it's obvious Anarcho-Liberals on Holla Forums wouldn't like him.

No they don't actually. If you actually believe in female autonomy, why would you mandate what women can wear? Feminist need to quit sinking into neo-puritanism and let people live their lives.

might as well just embrace Hitler by this point tbh

Roman Empire is the closest any slave holding society got to capitalism.

French-Algerian hybrids are the best 2bh

no racisto

Funny you say that considering that this was achieved through brutal colonialism. I bet you support the PCF's position on the algerian war

source on pic?

Isabelle Adjani, and the previous post wasn't a comment on Algerian-French relations/history 2bh

I was kidding if you couldn't tell :^)

tbh French/Algerian hybrid look Italian, Kek !

i don't have the stats (because they're illegal in France) but im' 90% sure that most French/Algerian hybrid have a French mother.

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I'm more wary of our own fundamentalists than Islamic ones.

I have to agree with the windmill.

You shouldn't be

as an ex-muslim whenever i see a leftist defending muslims i get enormous amount of butthurt

I am too. Former shia Muslim. Obviously I don't think they all should be le gulaged and I don't think saying someone should be allowed to wear a headscarf is "defending Muslims" on the same level as defending the Quran from criticism or something

Whoops. Selected wrong flag

Indeed. I don't think muslims should be gulaged.
They should be thrown into acid wells

Our own fundamentalists threaten our way of life far more than Muslim immigrants.

You were raised in a conservative Sunni household weren't you? I feel for you dude. I've heard the stories.

What exactly makes you so upset though? Mummy and Papa didn't let you go to homecoming or shave off your pedostache? Wouldn't let you eat chicken MC nuggets? Made you go to the mosque and listen to a boring old shit talk for like three hours?

Oh, I assumed you lived in the West. What country is it if you don't mind me asking?

Are you saying the conservative nature of the people in your country are due to its backwardness, or vice-versa?

I hate islam now.

they deserve to be defended by leftists cause fuck racism and identity politic right wing reactionary asshats villifying them just for being muslim

in the end our goal is no religion. but that doesn't mean they dont deserve to be defended.

i've seen hijabi communists in lebanon

Talk shit one more time I dare you fucking gulenist basterd bitch

I bet you get your fucking tafsirs off wikipedia

It's so sexy though.

You forgot the most gobsmacking claim:
No it isn't, it's being imposed from what was once an obscure tribe of hardliners in the far peninsula, now vastly expanded in influence through Cold War backing of the Saudi Arabian royal family's ideology against Soviet-sympathetic secular regimes that once made up the majority of the Muslim world.

Who cares? Yeah, it's stupid to single out Islam but to deny Islam has a class character is even more bullshitty. Anyone who knows anything about the history of the Islamic World knows it has always been a place of rigid social hierarchy and the practices and teachings of Islam reflect that.

fuck off

tfw no secular unspooked mideast

But weren't most of the "progressive" Iranian/Afghani women in those pics only a minor subset of the population (i.e. the urban middle-class/professionals)?

Anyone who believes her wardrobe is anti-imperialist isn't a comrade to begin with, OP.

In Iran yes. The hijab enjoys overwhelming support.

Generally dominated by the base.

The afghan women were actually americans
The egyptians were probably coptics, they still dress like that now.
The iranians were imperialist tools

It's up to the women which are subjected to hijabis to liberate themselves. Forcing them to take it off does nothing for them.

I think it's pretty disheartening that there isn't more of a backlash against it.
Liberal feminism is shitty like that, and I'm pretty sure that radfems would be much more likely to criticize it.

Fundamentally I don't disagree with letting people wear what they want on their head, but there is a difference between regular clothing and symbolic religious/cultural items, as well as a difference between willingly wearing them and being socially pressured to do so.
Sure some of these older women can say "I want to wear a hijab, respect my autonomy", and I wouldn't stop them, but I can't apply the same principle to the teenage girls that are pressured by their parents to adopt this custom. I've known a few ex-Muslim girls who have had to deal with so much shit from their families for not following religious practices which function to increase men's control over the means of reproduction.
I see it at the inner city elementary school I volunteer at, girls just starting puberty are encouraged by their parents to veil themselves. Girls that are fairly new to the country and maybe aren't as able to make friends are instantly signaled out as religious/ethnic minorities, and the way they get treated by the other kids is fundamentally different too. It's the sort of cross-cultural awkwardness that people get when they don't know too much but don't want to offend. It's pretty ridicolous that one day you would come to school with a scarf on your head and the only explanation for why it's there is "it's an obligation to my family/religion/community", and it alienates them from the rest of their peers. That's why I think it should be discouraged, when parents do that kind of thing they aren't really giving them free autonomy over their expression, they use social pressure and coercion to get their female child to do something which will most likely making it harder for her to integrate, potentially exacerbating other issues.

And yet we have people who claim it's "traditional culture" and "anti-imperialist" with no sense of irony.

See picture.

i don't care.
just wanted to let you know.

No, you must always try to reach out to people. They won't change unless there's pressure to do so, and muslims like to breed. If they continue to get into western countries, outbreed the native populations then they're bullshit will spread and grow. Just like how christains will feign peace until they hold a majority and start to implement their religion into law, the muslims will do the same. If we can nip any problem in the bud before they become too much of a political force it will only be easier. The more leeway we give them early on the more they'll cling to it and try to enforce it on others.

I think one of the big issues that prevents it from being discussed is that women push it on other women.

Another issue is that's it's religious. There's something special about religion, were it's seen as an untouchable sacred cow for a lot of people. It's the fundamental view they base their entire lives off of and when you attack it, even indirectly, people put up the barriers and won't debate but only argue. This is especially true in America as everything is turned into religion at some point (marriage, abortion, education, health care, etc.).

I'm just a burger, but I've heard something even more infuriating, where Muslims in Europe are often placed under the responsibility of "community leaders" significantly more fundamentalist than the norm the countries they originally emigrated from, with any secular Muslims who try to obtain positions of influence shouted down both by extremists within their little ghetto, and politically correct white knights from outside.

Dude, the Egyptions in those photos are the entire year's graduating class of Cairo University.

Some of those pictures are obviously misleading. Iranians are now definitely even more americanized than during Shah.

It's certainly not traditional. The hijab style we see so often is a specifically Gulf Arab aka Saudi style. Women in Iran, Afghanistan, even Pakistan before the Saudis took over wore theirs much differently, if at all.

litterally irellevant outside of afghanistan and parts of pakistan…

niqab =/= burqa my boi

here in [s]islamist shithole[s] germany ive never seen a burqa…some niqabs, yes but those two always get conlated and its annoying…

aka fascism

Then go fucking live with them.

Because anything pro non White and deeply triggering and problematic no matter how fucked up and repulsive with be promoted by the Left.

"I'm more afraid of X than Y" != "I approve of Y"

Why are you censoring and changing the text of posts? I said, "Because anything pro non White and deeply triggering and problematic no matter how fucked up and repulsive with be promoted by the Left."

As bad a Holla Forums

ANTI….WHITE…..Why are you censoring these 2 words?

Go live with the hip non White muslims already.

This is actually a huge problem, and it's not just the liberals who are contributing to it.

lol u mad?