Clamity in communist town

Hi Holla Forums

I've got a little scenario for you.

Say you've got a little communist village/town of 5000 people.

All food and resource distribution is largely centralized though there are multiple storage points that are each managed individually so as to ensure disaster in one area doesn't ruin everything at once. Children are raised by designated caretakers with the mothers providing breast milk through artificial means in most cases (save for the occasional extenuating medical circumstances if any). Work is assigned based on aptitude testing qualifying people for work that they are most suited for with demand for each job being the second determining factor before finally allowing the person to break any ties in that regard.

Trouble in paradise occurs as a large number of workers start to do less quality work or fudge numbers on reports while still taking their "allotted share" meaning production and supply amounts begin to drop into unsustainable numbers while the paperwork gives no indication until people begin to realize that half their equipment and vehicles for working dont actually function, only allowing about half the workforce to work at normal effectiveness (though occasionally half assed) while the rest are assigned to "busy work" or find a hiding place to shirk their duties.

You are the current leader of the communist party running this village.

What do you do? How do you handle this?

Remember that the paperwork and reports are faulty but it has become apparent that there are various shortages and short comings with a few of the harder workers making complaints or just becoming demoralized and half assing their own work.

Oh dear, it's been a while since I've used a trip code, why did I think that was how it worked?

Fuck off and read a book

As socialists, we have no interest in utopian experiments such as "communist villages".

Forgive me.
The marxist/communist circle jerking threw me off

I'm not sure I made myself clear: I meant "socialist" as a synonym for "Marxist" or "communist".

Marxism rejects utopian experimentation.

I wouldn't use this system in the first place because it's retarded.

This game is gay, why would I want villages like that?

have an incentive for managers to care about the quality of work of those they oversee, with the ability to punish workers under performing and reward workers who over perform (although studies have suggested the promise of monetary reward for increased productivity only benefits repetitive or algorithmic (a set of tasks) labor, while actually (I shit you not) having a negative impact on heuristic (creative or variable work) labor.
I don't see why capitalist businesses, where the owners of the business are diffuse shareholders, who elect or make up a board of directors, who elect a ceo, and then remunerate the ceo based on perceived performance (although how well that actually works is debatable as many things can happen to a business that are out of ceo control), can't be mimicked by a democratic body acting like shareholders. And instead of remunerating people with a money-commodity that they spend on goods, and that money is then reinvested in production, they are remunerated with some other unit of account (labor vouchers, energy credits, or subscriptions to sets of commodities or services)
I also think groups of workers working together can self police for performance if they all benefit from higher outputs + the work isn't extremely onerous

it's a theoretical question of how people are remunerated and how production is organized in socialism. I think it's a fair discussion, even though FALC is of course the best way to go, and there are answers to it.

"Work" should also be reconstructed, ala Bob Black to be more enjoyable.

I think that should be the primary goal of the state once a functioning socialism as been constructed.
If you can abolish all onerous work, people could voluntarily do it without need for remuneration systems.

No they don't.

/thread

Fucking kill yourself man, im not responding to your memes.


Ask people if they actually want to do the job they do. Put everyone in a job they more or less enjoy and make the other jobs part of some sort of community service everyone needs to do. Kill the narrator.

Alternatively:

Fail.

largely guessed the intent though it seems I know less about exactly what people mean on this board by communism and Marxism than I originally thought.

I'm guessing based on your responses
(>>1092079 >>1092102 )
that communism is mostly dependent on volunteer work for much of it's production and that ( ) socialism is the response to not having enough volunteers where the state pays workers in compensation?

Let's put aside OP's breast milk fetish, and the small-town thing can also be ignored. The question is: How do you reduce that people shirk and that they fudge numbers? "Machines will do everything" is a cop-out.

The problem in thinking about alternatives to capitalism is that brains tend to use lazy heuristics, greedy algorithms. That is, it is easier to think of small changes than big changes, and if small changes don't seem to bring an improvement the thinking about change stops. What is needed for communism is a change in a whole package of relations. How do we compare that with capitalism? The lazy heuristic is to think of parts of that package of changes in isolation. "If we changed aspect A, all else equal to now, would that work? Hmmm, no. If we changed B, all else equal, would that do it? No…" And so, if the parts of the big change don't constitute improvements in themselves (they might even make things worse), the big change' is rejected. Unless we give ourselves a nudge and think long and hard about the big change, we will give up. (We might even bring up a handy Marxian excuse for avoiding thinking about a better future: that isolated ivory-tower intellectuals can't think up some great blueprint in all details. But that's the crucial thing, the hubris of assuming all details, not to reject all guessing. So, inject some coffee into your veins and think.)

When thinking about an alternative to capitalism, an easy and wrong small-change thought is that people in important positions such as supervisors will have a different duty. Instead of benefiting themselves, they shall act for the benefit of the community, inshallah! But their current positions generate their current behavior (which re-generates the positions and behaviors).

So, I don't believe supervision is ever going to disappear, but who is going to do this? Will it be different from now, and is there reason to believe that the set of relations will be stable and not turn back into old roles and behaviors? Who sets the standards for how much effort can be reasonably expected at this or that task and how it is to be remunerated?

The key is this: If you say some task is done in an unusually slow way compared to some other task or unusually highly compensated compared to another task that is similar (according to your judgment), you have to be up for doing things yourself, that way, with that compensation, for your words to have merit. Simple as that. (And yet, you will not find this insight in the entire works of, say, Trotsky, who believed the magical party magically knows.) Comparisons of two tasks is done by people who do these two tasks. They don't give a report to "experts" who then decide to do whatever they want with that (wipe their arses, for instance), they decide on productivity norms and renumeration (in relative terms, like distributing 100 points for arduousness between the two tasks, not reporting on some absolute scale that both tasks are worth one trillion points or something like that).

There isn't anybody who does all tasks, but you have people who do A and B, and people who do B and C; and so you obtain information about how arduous doing A is relative to C, even if no individual actually has ever done both. The longer these comparison chains are and the fewer people add their voice (I'm thinking especially about the weakest link in such a chain), the less reliable the information is. For that reason, some people should be assigned to tasks in a way to make these comparison chains more reliable. (Another issue is Condorcet preference loops. I think they are not common, and they can be dealt with by taking that as evidence the tasks in the loop are similar, but we are getting into detail territory here.)

Anyway, OP. What's the deal with breast milk?

It's me again, the central planning genius from post who is apparantly to stupid for formatting text properly:

The problem in thinking about alternatives to capitalism is that brains tend to use lazy heuristics, greedy algorithms. That is, it is easier to think of small changes than big changes, and if small changes don't seem to bring an improvement the thinking about change stops. What is needed for communism is a change in a whole package of relations. How do we compare that with capitalism? The lazy heuristic is to think of parts of that package of changes in isolation. "If we changed aspect A, all else equal to now, would that work? Hmmm, no. If we changed B, all else equal, would that do it? No…" And so, if the parts of the big change don't constitute improvements in themselves (they might even make things worse), the big change is rejected. Unless we give ourselves a nudge and think long and hard about the big change, we will give up. (We might even bring up a handy Marxian excuse for avoiding thinking about a better future: that isolated ivory-tower intellectuals can't think up some great blueprint in all details. But that's the crucial thing, the hubris of assuming all details, not to reject all guessing. So, inject some coffee into your veins and think.)

When thinking about an alternative to capitalism, an easy and wrong small-change thought is that people in important positions such as supervisors will have a different duty. Instead of benefiting themselves, they shall act for the benefit of the community, inshallah! But their current positions generate their current behavior (which re-generates the positions and behaviors).

So, I don't believe supervision is ever going to disappear, but who is going to do this? Will it be different from now, and is there reason to believe that the set of relations will be stable and not turn back into old roles and behaviors? Who sets the standards for how much effort can be reasonably expected at this or that task and how it is to be remunerated?

The key is this: If you say some task is done in an unusually slow way compared to some other task or unusually highly compensated compared to another task that is similar (according to your judgment), you have to be up for doing things yourself, that way, with that compensation, for your words to have merit. Simple as that. (And yet, you will not find this insight in the entire works of, say, Trotsky, who believed the magical party magically knows.) Comparisons of two tasks is done by people who do these two tasks. They don't give a report to "experts" who then decide to do whatever they want with that (wipe their arses, for instance), they decide on productivity norms and renumeration (in relative terms, like distributing 100 points for arduousness between the two tasks, not reporting on some absolute scale that both tasks are worth one trillion points or something like that).

There isn't anybody who does all tasks, but you have people who do A and B, and people who do B and C; and so you obtain information about how arduous doing A is relative to C, even if no individual actually has ever done both. The longer these comparison chains are and the fewer people add their voice (I'm thinking especially about the weakest link in such a chain), the less reliable the information is. For that reason, some people should be assigned to tasks in a way to make these comparison chains more reliable. (Another issue is Condorcet preference loops. I think they are not common, and they can be dealt with by taking that as evidence the tasks in the loop are similar, but we are getting into detail territory here.)

How do you reduce that they don't?

yes, that's a common way of thinking about it. I do think communism is possible even with onerous work, but less likely.
There are leftcoms who will disagree, because they think that global proletarian revolution goes straight to communism, and socialism is just another word for communism and state socialists are full of shit.

Holy strawman batman.
Just because we tend to use the terms socialism and communism interchangeably, doesn't mean we don't think there would probably be a "lower phase of communism" (Marx's words) where allocation of consumer goods and services is based on work hours performed.
What we are opposed to (in this context) is the idea that there will be commodity exchange between independent producers in this "lower phase".

The notion that we believe the revolution will simultaneously occur everywhere is also a massive fucking strawman. We hold that "socialism in one country" is essentially impossible and that the revolution will have to spread in order to survive.

Socialism is another word for the first phase of communism.

And it's not "leftcoms" who think that: it is Lenin, following Marx himself.

People tend to mistake communism for its higher phase, the dictatorship of the proletariat for socialism, and any successful takeover of a government for the revolution.

Can you teach me how to boldpost and italicpost?


Send in the tanks, of course. But it turns out the tank engines were made of cardboard too, so we all starve.

He is not alone in thinking that LeftCom expect instant Communism.

Which implies fully socialized economy. I.e. no longer "lower phase".

Can you elaborate on this?