Disregarding the quality of the final game, was it right to radically change so many mechanics of Mario for Mario 64...

Disregarding the quality of the final game, was it right to radically change so many mechanics of Mario for Mario 64? Originally, all the levels were going to be more akin to the Bowser stages, linear obstacles courses with a flagpole or goal at the end, much more like the original Mario games. By the time the game was finished, however, the way that the player progressed through the game and interacted with the world was radically unlike anything seen before. Should Mario 64 have become an entirely new property at this point, rather than taking the title of Mario's proper entry into 3D from any hypothetical title that could've more closely followed the example set by the NES trilogy, World, and (arguably) Yoshi's Island?

Well it was the first venture into 3D so anything was game.

Considering it was not only one of the first realtime 3D games with a non-fixed camera and is widely considered to be one of the most revolutionary games ever made. They must've done something right

And what exactly are you asking, here? That Mario 64 shouldn't have Mario? He's more like the overall mascot character, like Mickey Mouse, and it was Nintendo next generation of flagship platforming games. I don't what the problem would be, if that's your question. You might as well ask why he's in Mario Kart as well.

especially when most developers had no idea how to make games in a 3D space. I'm surprised Nintendo managed to make games like Custom Robo, F-Zero X, Star Fox 64, OoT and Super Mario 64. Say what you will about Nintendo now, but they did some revolutionary shit in the 5th and 6th generation of consoles. Well maybe that goes for vidya as a whole, but you know what I mean. the gamecube and N64 had some pretty crazy shit going for it. Even the Wii had some innovation going for it, shame like the WiiU, the NX will likely be half assed version of the DS that doesn't really do anything different other than achieve Gunpei Yokoi's dream of having a console become a portable. However even then there are innovations that can be done with a console that can't be done with a handheld, either way we're gonna have to wait and see.

wasn't the original plan for Mario to be in all of Nintendo's games?

Nintendo was VERY experimental in the mid 90s to mid 2000s. Which gave rise to all their most critically acclaimed shit. It was a time when they weren't afraid to make a deal with a dying company (Gamefreak) and take a massive risk that greatly payed off. It was a time when they were experimenting with brand new styles of gameplay and hardware quite literally nobody in history had done before. Nintendo during this era was like The Beatles during the Sgt. Peppers era.

One of my favorite aspects of game design in general comes from Nintendo having to solve the problem of a dynamic camera system in Super Mario 64. Since nobody in history had done a realtime dynamic non-fixed camera in a 3D space before, they had to get creative. So they rationalized it by having the camera be its own character, the Lakitu

That game did flying and swimming underwater well on top of great platforming. The level design was so unique and abstract that 20 years later there's few games that can match it.

Even visually it still stands the test of time. Throw some HD texture packs and filters at it while emulating it in 4k, it looks better than most games being made today.

If you have any type of DS this game is a must have.

What is this sorcery?

Yeah Nintendo wasn't afraid to take risks when it came to gameplay. I wonder what happened? Was Iwata so unsatisfied with the gamecube that he abandoned this experimental style and forced the company to pander to a more casual oriented crowd? Or was he pushed by people like Reggie and the current shareholders that forced the decision cater to a new audience? Either way Nintendo seems to be a shadow of its former self, and I personally see the Wii as the reason why there's so much divisiveness in the industry, and Microsoft as the reason why there's so much greed. It really is sad that all three console makers fucked up in such a disappointing fashion. hell as you guys know, I was a huge Nintendrone myself until NoA started fucking up the games and started removing actual gameplay content and content from games with a Mature rating. it wasn't like with Fire Emblem that they had a somewhat half assed excuse that they were doing it for the children, they're doing it purely out of politics, and IF I get an NX it sure as hell will be imported, be it from Japan or Europe. but that's beside the point.

Either way I hope publishers will take more risks soon, because the industry is getting stagnant, and appealing to the youtube crowd will be worse than the iPhone and Wii.

There's no question that it was revolutionary and extremely important to video games as a whole, but is it a true Mario game?

You could say that it was just a logical progression from World's many paths through the game combined with Yoshi's Island's emphasis on collection, but shifting the goal from reaching the end of many consecutive stages to completing several objectives within different stages that are accessed from a hub world is quite the considerable change.


Mario Kart is clearly a spinoff rather than a successor, since it takes place in an entirely different genre that barely resembles the main games outside of aesthetics. The question here is the legitimacy of touting Mario 64 as a "Super Mario Bros. 6" when it's so far removed from the other Marios. You can't really say it's a spinoff, since it's the N64's flagship Mario game and it's close enough to the established platforming of the prior games, but it's still not a straight continuation of SMW (or SMW2, but whether that is a spinoff is debatable.)

oh, I wanted to edit that since I could.

it's my post after all

Well here's the thing, they didn't call it Super Mario Bros. Hell Luigi isn't even in the game, the reason for that wasn't only due to time restraints but also because they didn't know how shit would come out. it was a fuck huge gamble, and it paid off just as huge.

The thing is; the Wii itself was experimental for the time. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the DS is the sole reason Steve Jobs sall the gaming potential in the iPhone and released the App store. But it also wasn't a conventional console, Nintendo stopped experimenting with games and started experimenting on hardware while the games themselves suffered as a result. It also proved to be unsustainable, as after the Wii Nintendo fell behind

What Nintendo needs to do is go back to their roots, release a conventional console again. And start focusing on the games again. They have the budget and the talent to do this. They just need to be steered back in the right direction

You chk8 cunt

Yes, honestly. You gotta understand that at the time, with Mario so young, they had to innovate or die. With the leap to 3D, they had to do something unique. Because while you COULD do another 2D platformer that's more of the same with lots of polish, that was an era where those were really common. They needed to do something unique to stand out. It makes too much sense to make something like this.

How do you answer that question without taking results into account? It worked to great critical and financial success and helped spawn a fad that the rest of the industry would try (to varying degrees of failure) to follow. It worked so resoundingly that I can't see any case for it not being right.

yeah the Wii was experimental, and so was the DS. but I worry that the aftermath that followed with the iPhone was one of the reasons why the industry is in its stale consumer hating state its in today. I do agree that Nintendo needs to become experimental again, but only time will tell if the NX will be another DS or another WiiU, but frankly seeing how shit's going on right now, I'm willing to bet it's gonna be another WiiU.

With that said, I don't particularly mind the NX being a handheld, since if the rumors are true then we can see some unique control methods like we did with the Wii, the problem is that will 3rd party developers bother developing for the system? Hell the Deus Ex guys didn't even THINK about developing for the NX, that shows how much Nintendo's reputation is sinking. It's just a really damn shame how such a great company can turn into such a breeding ground for NISA tier localizations of sub par games, that are just a shadow of their former selves. Thankfully SEGA has been improving where Nintendo is declining, so maybe we'll see more interesting things from SEGA on PC.

Editing your own post in normal conversation is arguably abusing your mod tools and ruining the point of anonymity.
Although what does that matter to a glorified tripfag anyway? It's kind of hypocritical that you ban avatarfags now but still draw attention to yourself in a similar way. Set a bloody example.

I see it more as a benefit of being a hotpocket rather than an abuse of power, since no one is affected by my editing other than myself.

also don't forget to sage user, it's not proper etiquette to talk about these things without sage and not contributing to the topic as well.

I don't think that's a matter of reputation so much as it's recognition of the audience they're developing for. People who will want to play a Deus Ex game will own a PC, PS4, or XBone and in all likelihood they will buy it for that platform. The cost of porting it over in exchange for getting access to the tiny bit of the gaming market that doesn't own a traditional console (or modern PC) or prefers having the game available on the go cannot be worth the sales they'd get. The same holds true for most modern AAA games, they know their audience has been locked to the MS/Sony market since Nintendo broke off with the Wii. Two generations of consoles (can we even call the NX a console?) down the line, that audience isn't going to suddenly come back to Nintendo, if they ever could.

Don't keep your hopes up user. Game budgets have inflated to outrageous levels because developers focus too much on expensive voice actors who nobody cares for, spending too much on graphical polish, and for trillions spent on marketing.

If you want to look for good games you'll have to look way out of your way and explore, AAA publishers and "indie" devs are stagnant.

It's like an abuse because everyone else needs to commit with their posts and deal with their mistakes. A mod casually editing his own posts is like screaming out to the world that he's a mod and can do this. That itself isn't really proper etiquette, and is near the category of trip/name/avatarfaggoting because of the clear "edited at X" on the post.

If a mod does that for his own posts he should be prepared to go around correcting people's mistakes for them all over the place.

I suppose you make a solid point about Deus Ex, however the fact of the matter of the matter is that Nintendo is having rocky relationships with developers and now gamers. Sadly we see no efforts to improve either relationship as seen with Nintendo of America allowing Nich Maragos to stay employed in the company despite having a financial investment in one of his critics and actually taking their advice instead of staying true to the writing in the localization.

Not to forget the fact that the localization in Fire Emblem Fates was one of the worst localizations in modern gaming history, and it took a bloody year for it to release state side. That in combination with Nintendo's butchering of Animal Crossing, Xenoblade and Fatal Frame made their recent actions unacceptable.

With that said Nintendo needs to work on improving its relationships, some leaker mentioned something along these lines, but seeing how they've fucked up their relationships with the hardcore community, youtubers, publishers and developers. I think they need some serious changes in management.

You make a solid argument and I'll try to avoid it in the future. my apologies.

But that's wrong you stupid kike. Anons who see the pre-edit post are exposed to different information than Anons who only see the post-edit one. How can you not understand that this can have an effect on the ongoing discussion? Not to mention there is absolutely no reason at all to need to edit a post when you can just quote yourself, state the new information and give a polite sage for double posting; unless your intent was on hiding shit.

Absolutely pathetic that the BO is such a newfag he doesn't even know standard board etiquette

It's a privilege not a benefit. Nobody here wants to know who we're replying to or reading a post by unless it's pertinent to the discussion. It does affect us.

I'm more interested in what the future of Mario games will be. After Galaxy 2 it's been nothing but NSMB and 3D Land style games (I count Mario Maker as a spin-off). Will Ninty go back to making 3D Marios like 64/Sunshine/Galaxy or are they done with the hub worlds?

I think Nintendo is pretty much done with making experimental games in their major franchises. They're just going to stick with what has been working the last 7 years.

I'm sorry and I'll try avoid it in the future, jeez. Anyway let's get back on topic. I wanna talk more about Nintendo's experimental style and less about meta stuff.


Miyamoto mentioned a new style of Mario, so I hope it's gonna be rad as fuck.

Honestly, if there's one thing that Nintendo knows not to fuck up, it's Mario. They're likely to fuck everything else up, but they know not to keep Mario stale. With that said, I thought the same thing of Nintendo's console up to the WiiU, so we'll see what happens with that.

They're definitely up shit creak with most developers (especially the Western ones), but they've pretty much always been there as long as there were strong alternatives. Fourth gen, third-parties hated Nintendo's mandated censorship of their games (i.e. Mortal Kombat). Fifth gen, a number of prominent third-parties such as Square got fed up with Nintendo's licensing costs and jumped ship to Sony (ensuring the Playstation's financial success). Sixth gen even exclusivity agreements with trusted third-party partners like Capcom fell apart with the Capcom Five either getting ported or cancelled outright aside from P.N.03. Seventh gen, Nintendo had a chance to come back but the Wii ended up as a dumping platform for shovelware, most of which sold negative units because to most Wii owners, it was a Wii Sports box. Now Nintendo has next to no third-party support.

As for localization, I agree wholeheartedly. Nintendo has been doing a reprehensible job. To be fair, though, even good localization wouldn't have made Fates into a good game.

The community aspect is a mixed bag, but you're mostly right. I think they've been doing a good job at treating the Smash community well and trying to use competitive gaming as a promotional ground for their upcoming games. On the other hand, they have severely fucked up on their Youtube policy. As much as I hate "gamer" e-celebs, having them play your games is the most cost effective and least demanding possible way to reach Nintendo's primary intended demographic. They should incentivize it, and that means allowing them to monetize their "content" (low-effort as it is), so that they could promote the games (for free). Nintendo games are usually not narrative driven and will be streamed for free anyway, so there's really no reason not to. Someone from marketing or PR should have stepped in and stopped legal from going full Jew on it, they really bit the hand that feeds them. Speaking of Nintendo's legal department going full Jew, having fans shut down their projects isn't as obviously detrimental to their PR/marketing, but they still probably shouldn't do it. Especially to projects that use mostly original assets.

I think it all goes to show what I said earlier: Nintendo still has very talented developers, they just need proper direction.

what no, htey need to make good games retard
it took them 64 games to make a barely decent game called mario 64 you fucking retard

They used to, but not so much anymore. After Galaxy 1 and 2 which were great they basically regressed into NSMB and 3D Land and World, which are still well made but I honestly got bored of those

Fates might have been a sub par game, but even a game like that doesn't deserve such a bad localization job. You also bring up a very good point about Nintendo and its lawyers, they've been out of control lately, I'm unsure if its due to the new president trying to get everything under control or if it was the new president that enforced this stricter policy towards fan projects. Either way It's not doing them any favors, same with the youtuber partnership, as much as I HATE the youtube audience, I do know that people who play games on youtube are a big part of marketing nowadays since the press has gone full Jack Thompson, so maintaining that relationship with the press REALLY isn't doing them any favors.


they absolutely do, hell Splatoon was mostly younger developers who wanted to try something new. What Nintendo needs right now is proper management, that's the issue they've been facing with Iwata's death, and that's the issue they've been currently facing now with the NX launch and a president who's trying to keep order when the American branch wants to do something completely different than the Japanese branch. Here's hoping in a few years Nintendo will get back to normal.


Well like I said, it really depends what the mario team does with the new game. If it's a new experimental title like Galaxy, then we're bound to get something great. If we're getting another NSMB or 3D Land rehash then Nintendo is beyond saving. that's just the reality of the situation.

I never will understand why people still bother using Windows 7 when we have Windows 2000

Nintendo fails again

but what was Mario X?

Let’s consider a KNOWN point at which a property should no longer carry its name.

Star Fox Adventures.

From that, we can whittle back and determine how similar a game should be while still being the same franchise.

And yes, SM64 was fine as a 3D platformer.

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Platforming based levels more akin to the Bowser levels would have been overall better in a pure platforming sense but wouldn't have made Mario 64 quite as important as it was, the hub like levels were an excellent showcase for level design in 3d, sometimes I think Nintendo made Mario 64 as a way to show people how to make a 3d game, sort of like Wii Sports for the Wii-mote and Nintendo land for the WiiU.


Nintendo is still experimental, they are just too focused on pushing new input methods and rebuilding games that are squares to fit into a circle, this has worked before with the jump to 3d but the new systems are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I think going forward for Nintendo it would be much more beneficial to take a genre well defined by other companies and then twist it into a Nintendo game rather than taking a genre or IP that Nintendo has done themselves very well and twisting it too far.

Box Boy, Puzzle Platformer
Splatoon, Arena shooter
Pikmin, RTS
Smash Bros, Fighting game
Rhythm Heaven, Music game
Mario Sports, Sports game

Vs

Paper Mario Sticker Star
Star Fox Zero
Skyward Sword
Metroid Other M


I thought it was an issue with bad contracts with things like minimum print amounts and not high royalties/licencing fees, I remember reading something about royalties and Sony has the largest one and Nintendo has the smallest one, but I can't find the source for it so whatever.

Actually I think controlling third parties was a smart move but Nintendo did take it too far, now they run rampant and console manufacturers let them get away with whatever they want because they make a vast majority of their money from third party royalties.


Mario 7 was my favourite.

Well yeah, with Star Fox Adventures it was more like a futuristic Zelda game rather than a Star Fox game. Hell the only relatable things to Star Fox are the characters. I'm quite surprised Shiggy Diggy recommended it be a star fox game

well pikmin and rythm heaven were done during the Wii and DS point of their life, and smash was a thing since the N64. I would say that they did a great job with Splatoon, but other than that their efforts haven't been as good as they used to be

Yeah, and I explained why I think that's the case, I think with Breath of the Wilde we will see if they still have it.

we shall see user, only time will tell.

Mario 64 is actually Doki Doki Panic 2 in Japan.

Ok, now I really don't what the fuck you're asking.
Which is what I was suggesting. It really not that far removed at all. It's an broader extension of their "Super Mario" platforming games, in a third dimension. You run and jump, stomp on enemies, collect power ups. It is Super Mario.

The thing is, it's also not called "Super Mario Bros Land-World 6", it's called "Super Mario 64". Like I said, Mario is their big mascot character; it's not a surprise for him to be in this new game. Did you want Captain Falcon as the main character?

Or are you asking why they made the jump to 3D at all, because that is a completely question. I have no idea what you want.

*completely different question
damn it

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OP is just being a pretentious faggot. I don't even understand what kind of point he's trying to make.

This is what 3D Land is and it's shit. Dunno about World being much better. Any 3D Mario (even Sunshine) trumps the 'linear 3D' model pioneered by later. So this would've been a wash.

Well, it depends. Would it have saved 2D Mario? It seems that Nintendo hates making 2D Mario games after Mario 64. Pre-64, we got four excellent 2D Mario games. We haven't got one since. The 'New' 2D Marios are so bland it seems phoned in. If Mario 64 being handed off to another IP meant more great 2D Mario releases (and NOT 3D World-esque shit), I'd be all for it. But I'm not sure it'd be enough.

3D Mario games have always been significantly weaker in sales than the 2D counterparts (NSMB sold more than 64DS, NSMBW more than Galaxy, etc.) so it was easily a wrong move for Nintendo's shareholders. Not that the average gamer gives a shit.

But lots of other SH will support NX, even square itself already confirmed Dragon quest builders and XI for NX (and Final fantasy XV and VIIRemake will probably be on it too).
If that's a real third party support and not simply the third party support Wii U had with outdated ports and stuff is to be seen though.

A good reason for why they had "worlds" with multiple stars vs "linear levels" with a single star was that it saves dev time and space on the cart.

could they even have done a linear style game? having it open ended allowed for reusing the same levels multiple times and saving cart space, could it feasibly have as many unique levels as the the 2d games preceding it and keep the ROM size small?