Convince me that reformism isn't the only way to go

Convince me that reformism isn't the only way to go.

If we assume that the 'state' will never disappear then full gomminism is a non-starter.

Once we've all accepted teh above suggest some reforms that could be made that would improve life for the majority while also placing min check the power of those at the top.

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Reformism (politics in general) is completely removed from reality and only cares about things in the abstract. You can't vote your way into a meaningful life

It's utopistic idea.

So you're unwilling mto give this a little thought but have doubtless spent hours discussing what specifically dead white men meant? It's almost like 'theory' is a refuge.

C'mon m8. You have absolute power. Absolute. Surely you can think of something?

That is a stupid as fuck assumption.

not an argument

No it's not. Assuming that we'll slide into anarchism sure is though.

Nor was this. That you are unwilling to even consider reformism simply shows that you show holding your beliefs as more important than acheiving anything. Virtue signalling if you will.

Jesus christ fags, play the fucking game. If your policies are to execute everyone with more than $5000 in the bank then so be it. Go fucking wild.

I don;t care about abstractions user and that's what reformism deals in. Liberating the workers can't even be done through political means because it's an economic project.

Surely the worker can only be liberated when he isn't compelled to work at all? And you say you don't deal in abstraction…

Liberation is a gradual process, gradualism and reformism are not the same thing.

Ahh. So you sit on your ass talking highfalutin ideas then will claim that you did your part should we ever stumble into something vaguely socialist? Neck yourself. Or you could prove me wrong and tell me how one actively supports a gradualism movement?

Additionally, how the fuck do you gradualism without reform?

We don't stumble into something socialist, it's gradual. You can go on and on about stupid socdem bullshit but at the end of the day none of the problems in my life have been solved so I'm not interested.

I already said by rejecting politics (elections, parties etc) as such and actually taking control of your work.

Cause this happens all the time?


Suggesting you believe you are making steps in the direction of socialism? If you're not doing it politically then how are you doing it? Cause I ain't seeing it.

The only way you can make the assumption that the state will last forever is if you assume that societal organization will remain fundamentally unchanged for all eternity.

The state is a rather specific organizational model. Stop following it and you don't have a state

There would be a revolution, but the point is that things don't start or stop there. The best thing we can do now is probably to educate ourselves as far as we can. That's what I mean by gradualism in a way. Of course you can say "oh well you're just lazy" but the point is that the task being undertaken is actually freeing people and even though reforms seem practical they don't make any progress toward that.

Sorry but what more education do you need? The only benefit to being king of thory I can see is if you fancy yourself a role among the vanguard. And IMO these people are just another stripe of megalomania.

Again you mention 'freeing people'. Freeing them from what exactly? Work or exploitative work?

There has been hierarchy as long as there has been civilization. The 'state' is just a modern version of this hierarchy. Now I get that no hierarchy is a key component of anarchy. I just can't envision how it would work long term.

The problem with reformism, aside from the obvious difficulty of trying to oppose the liberal capitalist status quo from within, is that people just want to engage in 'reforms' without any deeper theory or philosophical underpinnings.

If you want reformism to work, then you need to first start with a clearly stated ideological manifesto, a set of strong moral principles, and a long-term collective program for transforming society. Without a deeper ideological commitment all you have are piecemeal reforms that aren't tied together to a larger movement and thus are vulnerable to reactionary politics.

Push for a higher minimum wage, unionization, universal healthcare and free college and you'll meet the same tired opposition from both the Right, and "practical" centrist liberals who care only about the bottom line of preserving capitalism. Even if you do get those reforms passed, five years down the line their removal can be easily used as leverage or a threat within the bourgeois political system. Now your precious reforms are being used to hold the people hostage to a corrupt system and the same capitalist elites you were trying to protect people from.

How not? Why can't you reform society to look exactly as you like?

I don't think there's a limit on how much can be known.
Then why do you want to elect some kind of socdem party to do just about the same thing?

Freeing people in every way possible, giving them the greatest degree of autonomy and responsibility for their own lives.

Because you can't really take part in a political system to make it abolish itself, even gradually.

I'd agree. In fact I'd say that is essential. A direction, something to aim for. And yet nobody here has even attempted to lay down such a structure.

Of course there's not. But is it all useful or does there come a point that you're just deluding yourself into thinking you're actually doing something?


I don't. This was a thread to see if left/pol/ had solid, practicable ideas for change instead of just discussing in depth largely irrelevant theory.


So does everyone here believe that the state has to be abolished by force? I gave you a blank slate. You can literally have your first law restrict the power of government if you so choose. I find it odd that left/pol/ never wants to offer specific solutions beyond GAS THE RICH, REVOLUTION NOW!!!

Understanding yourself and the world around you is always useful. It's probably the single most useful faculty that humans have.

I know myself. I know the world around me well enough. Learning the lexicon of 200 year old theory doen't bring about change of any kind. Is left/pol/ fucking allergic to thinking about how to change the world? I mean you realise the kind of ideas discussed here are a pipe-dream at best right? Revolution, envisioning anarchist society. Pointless. There are real issues in the world today. But you are all so unwilling to dirty yourselves in any way you focus not on what could feasibly be done to improve lives today but instead fantasize about some other world where your theory amounts to more than just a thought experiment. I say tis not to have a go but out of frustration. I've lurked here over a year and never once seen anyone suggest something that could practically be done today to improve the world. Hell, you won't even put forward ideas in a fucking LARPing thread.

Read Plato's dialogues is all I have to say to that.

Why are you so unwilling to propose changes that would make a society more as you believe it should be?

Tell you what. Play my game and I'll read your fucking wordy things. Which one should I start with?

sacred-texts.com/cla/plato/

Apology. Also sorry because I can't think of a way that reformism would actually be good for the reasons that I already said.

I am essentially giving you free reign. So am I to assume that you cannot see any better societal structure than we currently have as long as a state maintains? Also how does one actually 'gradualism' if not by using state power?

You can't just use the state as some magical device to change the rest of society user. That's why the USSR failed. There aren't really any shortcuts.

It depends what change you're aiming for. And as this guy says what you're ultimately aiming for.