TITO BROZ, SLAVMAN BABY

Jaxson Campbell
Jaxson Campbell

TITO BROZ, SLAVMAN BABY

Other urls found in this thread:

libcom.org/library/praxis-marxist-critisism-dissent-socialist-yugoslavia.
mega.nz/#F!DpAz2IgQ!nW7bPNnpJFk5CAV3ypiaHw
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Jonathan Morris
Jonathan Morris

HE KILLS KRAUTS AND HATES THE TANKIES

Colton Torres
Colton Torres

TONY "28 GRAMS"CI BOUT TO WAGE A WAR OF POSITION

Dylan Garcia
Dylan Garcia

he literally did nothing wrong

Sebastian Johnson
Sebastian Johnson

Christopher Wilson
Christopher Wilson

NATO blackmailed him to do it, I swear!

Jace Anderson
Jace Anderson

Kind of ironic considering Hoxha literally ignored a crippling homelessness epidemic to build bunkers.

Nolan Cox
Nolan Cox

Sounds more like he solved it by providing roofs over their heads tbh.

Isaac Sanchez
Isaac Sanchez

You sound like a revisionist fam.

Thomas Ramirez
Thomas Ramirez

I wish I was alive when Hoxha went bunkers. He could have built houses out of sandbags and plaster that would have been cheaper and better. I would have told him and the world would have been in awe at the millions of bunkers we made.

Nolan Smith
Nolan Smith

You kid, but this is an argument unironically peddled among the type of retards in this thread who will curse Stalinists for writing off every arguments against this as 'bourgeois propaganda', but at the same time say Yugoslavia was much better without actually knowing much about it besides 'lol it's dat based 20th century country led by a socialist and it was against the USSR, so it's cool lol Tito xD market socialism Yugo bros.'.

As a guy who's parents grew up in the what used to be Yugoslavia and is now Serbia, and has done a lot of research on it, it was basically just as miserable as in the USSR. 'Market socialism' in practice mirrored what was basically the system of kholkosi in the USSR (so no, 'workplace democracy' was an outright sham) and personal freedom, especially the freedom to oppose to regime, was practically zero.

The same homelessness epidemic Yugoslavia endured, but managed to curb better than Albania with, you guessed it, IMF loans and the fact that there was freedom to leave the state capitalist shithole of Yugoslavia and move to western Europe where wealth and, quite ironically, personal freedom was plentiful.

Elijah Powell
Elijah Powell

ITS

THE

SLAV SHACK

Caleb Cruz
Caleb Cruz

Well I also have a "friend" who has parents that lived in Serbia in Yugoslavia as well and they would disagree.

regime
Not expecting some sort of repressive apparatus to protect the revolution whether Marxist or anarchist.
Regardless, you are exaggerating when you say that repression was as bad as the USSR. You could fucking leave for starters.

His father was able to get an education and work in a collective as soon as he left college. He left Belgrade only because of the war and now resides in America with an IT job that treats him like shit all day and a boss that sexually harasses him which he can really do nothing about in his situation.

I don't advocate for Market Socialism, but saying that it's worse than the USSR is silly and the Balkan states now are even worse now.

Wyatt Baker
Wyatt Baker

This is why, as I said, I have more than just anecdotal evidence from my parents, but an actual insight collected from research.

Not expecting some sort of repressive apparatus to protect the revolution whether Marxist or anarchist
There was no Yugoslav 'revolution'. The state of Yugoslavia was created by anti-fascist partisans who defacto ran the country economically following the Stalinist model of the USSR, then gradually introduced 'market socialism' on the federal level a few decades later. As a Leninist, I of course do not disagree with using coercion to maintain something, as long as this something is worth maintaining. Considering there was no such thing as critical input allowed in Yugoslavia, nor was it even possible to form organized opposition EVEN as communists, it was absolutely worthless. Read: libcom.org/library/praxis-marxist-critisism-dissent-socialist-yugoslavia.

you are exaggerating when you say that repression was as bad as the USSR
I am not. In virtually every facet of Yugoslav daily life, you had a mirroring of Stalinist trends. Stakhanovism, the 'ideal worker' doctrine based on hero worship of highly respected workers, existed just the same as udarnici. Political repression functioned on a similar labor camp repression as the gulags, but instead of most of them being in the Siberian diaspora, they were on goli otok. All dissent, mild or not, netted you an imprisonment. You can read more about this in Dragutin Grgurević's 'First Workers Council' (PDF related), sources at the end end notes.

You could fucking leave for starters.
Completely irrelevant. Political asylum was guaranteed for those who left in neighboring western European countries (which NOBODY in Yugoslavia knew; they were kept ignorant of this, and most other things through state-controlled media), and the fact that you could leave was only utilized to alleviate day to day repression by basically saying 'well if you don't like it, you can just leave!'.

So no, while Yugoslavia was not hell on earth, it was just yet another failed 20th century experiment that was little more than a dysfunctional nepotist capitalism where the bourgeois class was replaced with a red bureaucracy. Literally USSR, and my parents (who still have sympathy for the communist movement and its ideas, like me!) are glad it's over and buried.

Brody Clark
Brody Clark

move to western Europe where wealth and, quite ironically, personal freedom was plentiful.
Bad meme. I'm not fan of Yugoslavia or Josip "Lenin is for Queers, USA rox" Tito but the Western countries were already rich before WWII and had spent more then a century perfecting and shedding blood over their spooky bourgeois freedoms.

Carson Gray
Carson Gray

Terrible post

Jace Sullivan
Jace Sullivan

Western countries were already rich before WWII and had spent more then a century perfecting and shedding blood over their spooky bourgeois freedoms
Completely irrelevant to their motives for a better life now, is it? Yugoslavia was so dysfunctional that people only stayed for increasingly more nationalist sentiments or because they were legitimately affraid of leaving, both feelings stemming from a disillusionment of the status quo. I never glorified the west as ideal. All I said was that the west was quite ironically a better place to live in for just about anyone than Yugoslavia. Consult

Nice arguments. But sure, stay delusional. One day you'll look back and realize your attitude towards the 20th century was only selectively rational and comprehensive towards the USSR, and that you are no different from the Stalinists who excuse whatever the USSR did with what is basically a consequentialist, utilitarian view.

Carson Bell
Carson Bell

mum was yugoslavian
they missed literally nothing
skiing vacation in socialist stalinist poland
starving kids are begging them to buy them chocolate from the sealed off part of the mall only meant for the tourists
personal freedom and wealth were plentiful

tankies are so fucking deluded it's unreal

Justin Murphy
Justin Murphy

What do you think about Zizek's general remarks about Yugoslavia? Are they accurate?

David Gomez
David Gomez

zizek helped the liberal capitalists in slovenia topple the socialist regime, they slaughtered many innocent JNA soldiers and stole money from the other republics because the central bank of jugoslavija was located in slovenia

so ye fuck zizek

Jeremiah Lee
Jeremiah Lee

Ah yes b/c the muh privileges of the few are an accurate representation of the situation at large, and more importantly completely make the fact that the country was basically USSR with Balkan characteristics (>>1023929) nihil. Good job.

Also good job at taking the sweet Tito and hella Hoxha pic seriously, and then unironically thinking I am a Stalinist when I presented arguments that directly say Stalinism was the failure Yugoslavia was modeled after.

All accurate. Yugoslavia was a failure like any other 20th century communist experiment. Bury this shit in the dustbin where it belongs and look ahead like a proper communist.

Landon Young
Landon Young

Yugoslavia was a failure like any other 20th century communist experiment. Bury this shit in the dustbin where it belongs and look ahead like a proper communist.
It's not very perceptive to say that communism was a failure in the 20th century; it's self-evident. Also, looking ahead doesn't mean denouncing the past and disowning it. Fuck your bullshit choice of either burying it or glorifying Stalinism. Take your communist "sympathies" and fuck off back to reddit.

Ryder Hall
Ryder Hall

I fail to see at all how this is a critique of Market Socialism. It is more of a critique of the repression of political opinion in Tito's Yugoslavia, which is fair, I too hold these opinions. I don't quite grasp how this makes the economic practice of Market Socialism somehow less pragmatic for the west in terms of post-capitalist economic practices.

Elijah Perez
Elijah Perez

It's not very perceptive to say that communism was a failure in the 20th century; it's self-evident.
Apparently not to the people in this thread.

Also, looking ahead doesn't mean denouncing the past and disowning it.
It precisely does.

Fuck your bullshit choice of either burying it or glorifying Stalinism.
From the start, I said burying the past should be the innate quality of modern communists. There is nothing to salvage in that ungodly mess; there is only opportunity to learn from its failures.

if he disagrees, he's not a communist and should go back to <bogeyman website!>
First of all, if I don't go to reddit it's because it's precisely the kind of garbage I try to not have happen here. I am a communist, not a lifestylist.

It's not a critique of market socialism (although I don't agree with it), because there was no 'market socialism' as the theory presents it. It was a myth. In reality, it was identical to the system of kholkhoz and sovkhoz from the USSR post-Stalinization. The political oppression, while awful in itself, was only secondary to the basic fact that Tito's Yugoslavia was basically capitalism with red bureacracy replacing localized bourgeoisie. Once again, read this post (which nobody has for some reason!).

John Green
John Green

hurrdurr tankies tankies tankies
I must have missed that episode when Yugoslavia was not at all authoritarian and not having a secret police dragging people off in the middle of the night just like in the ML countries. Also le anecdotal evidence meme. I know plenty of Balkanbros and they sort of agree that it was a shithole.

Brody Price
Brody Price

Fair point.
And thnx for the LibCom link, however why did you link a book in a language half this board couldn't read?

Nathaniel Reed
Nathaniel Reed

There is nothing to salvage in that ungodly mess; there is only opportunity to learn from its failures.
If there's nothing to salvage there's nothing to learn.
I am a communist, not a lifestylist.
You're an asswipe who thinks the past can stay buried. You're motives are the same as any other who wants to keep their hands clean. If you write it all off then you don't have to defend yourself from guilt by association. Only problem being no one cares about your nuanced sensibilities; a communist is a communist to the bourgeoisie.

Asher Scott
Asher Scott

sage

Jaxon Gomez
Jaxon Gomez

Because there were people in this thread I replied to who are (or at least claimed to be) from ex-Yugoslav countries, meaning they can read Serbo-Croat.

If there's nothing to salvage there's nothing to learn.
I don't think there's anything worth saving (salvaging) much of anything besides theory and some authentic revolutionary sparks.

It must stay buried. Nobody should attempt to repeat the 20th century in the name of socialism or communism again.

Guilt by association? Hah, if only. I'm sorry but, unlike the Stalinists, I'm not here to play empiricist or apologist and say 'well, it wasn't THAT bad!'. No, I'm here to actually try my best to give birth to something worthwhile which actually ends up fulfilling the promise of a better world (like may I remind you, the communist movement was originally about). If the 20th century was a failure, it undoubtedly must have been set up to become the failure it was. This means the communist movement needs to start at the beginning entirely.

One is temp­ted to reverse Marx’s Thes­is 11: the first task today is pre­cisely not to suc­cumb to the tempta­tion to act, to inter­ve­ne dir­ectly and change things (which then inev­it­ably ends in a cul-de-sac of debil­it­at­ing impossib­il­ity: “What can we do again­st glob­al cap­it­al?”), but to ques­tion the hege­mon­ic ideo­lo­gic­al co-ordin­ates. In short, our his­tor­ic­al moment is still that of Adorno:
To the ques­tion “What should we do?” I can most often truly answer only”, with “I don’t know.” I can only try to ana­lyse rig­or­ously what there is. Here people reproach me: When you prac­tise cri­ti­cism, you are also obliged to say how one should make it bet­ter. To my mind, this is incon­tro­vert­ibly a bour­geois pre­ju­dice. Many times in his­tory it so happened that the very works which pur­sued purely the­or­et­ic­al goals trans­formed con­scious­ness, and thereby also social real­ity.
From Zizek's Revolution at the Gates. I very much agree with this sentiment.

Cameron Perez
Cameron Perez

what

Kayden Jackson
Kayden Jackson

I don't think there's anything worth saving (salvaging) much of anything besides theory and some authentic revolutionary sparks.
Nothing to be saved from a grave, but that's not what's under discussion here so much as this:

It must stay buried. Nobody should attempt to repeat the 20th century in the name of socialism or communism again.
There is no danger of that. Unless, of course, the Stalinist tendencies out there, which, I might add, are doing the most in a practical sense, manage to position themselves atop of a revolutionary wave.

Wouldn't that fit Marx's prescription perfectly though? First as tragedy, then as farce. Perhaps that's where we're headed after all.

Many times in his­tory it so happened that the very works which pur­sued purely the­or­et­ic­al goals trans­formed con­scious­ness, and thereby also social real­ity.
I very much agree with this sentiment.
But, if so, it would only occur because of petty critical theorists like yourself are unable to challenge them in the real world.

I'm here to actually try my best to give birth to something worthwhile which actually ends up fulfilling the promise of a better world
How can you challenge them if you don't engage with the past, or worse, pretend the past doesn't exist?

Jonathan Torres
Jonathan Torres

All I said was that the west was quite ironically a better place to live in for just about anyone than Yugoslavia.
That's fine, but you should keep in mind in terms of per capita wealth the abstraction we call "the West" is better then anywhere else in the world. By this measure any developing nation is going to come up short I don't see people pushing similar narratives about Mexico, India, or Subsaharan Africa although they could apply. It's no secret that when countries get richer they can afford to allow their populations more freedom (this isn't inevitable see Zizek) so call me a neoliberal but I'm not totally convinced about the meme that freedom leads to wealth. The reduced chance of being attacked by the West itself as a country becomes more powerful is in itself a reason why countries become "freer" as they become wealthier.

Would you rather starve to death in "free" democratic liberal India or have a shot at food and a relatively decent living (on the world scale) in "authoritarian" China?

When you consider that the West fought some very violent revolutions in the 18th and 19th centuries and colonized almost the whole world during that period it becomes pretty evident that its development was just as "authoritarian" as other states if not more.

I honestly believe Yugoslavia was terribly revisionist, probably worse then Krushy's USSR but the fetishization making East bloc state-capitalism out to be somehow worse then capitalism in the majority of other developing states, I believe is not really justifiable.

Thomas Reed
Thomas Reed

Srbija

Found your problem, famalam.

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Confirm your age

This website may contain content of an adult nature. If you are under the age of 18, if such content offends you or if it is illegal to view such content in your community, please EXIT.

Enter Exit

About Privacy

We use cookies to personalize content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyze our traffic. We also share information about your use of our site with our advertising and analytics partners.

Accept Exit