Even under socialism, with workers ownership of the means of production, how...

Jonathan White
Jonathan White

even under socialism, with workers ownership of the means of production, how would you solve the issue of environmental destruction? of course workers would not want to give up their jobs, but how will you protect the environment if workers want to keep their jobs? how will you force these workers to give up their jobs in more traditional energy fields to work in clean energy jobs, especially without the state?
inb4 convince them
if people were rational and listened to every arguments they faced with attention, we wouldnt have a world like this. most people dont care and simply want to live their lives doing what theyve always been doing to get a living.

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Brayden Morgan
Brayden Morgan

the environment doesnt need saving. clone everything

Parker Gonzalez
Parker Gonzalez

The workers come for me first over the environment so they would keep the jobs that they have.

Jordan Gomez
Jordan Gomez

Workers matter more.

You can always clone, or give workers the to duty to protect/ maintain it.

Not to mention you can start vertical farming.

Cameron Morales
Cameron Morales

environmental destruction?
We already past the point of fixing anything bud, capitalism fucked it up so good

The only hope we have is some kind of a ultra break with nature and full control of it; from weather, sunlight ray and heat control, controlling clouds to rain more or less etc… and make an industry out of controlling nature and the environment

Sebastian King
Sebastian King

We probably won't be able to give up fossil fuels completely overnight, but socialism would give us a chance to plan our use of fossil fuels rationally on a global scale. More resources would be put to researching and developing alternative sources of energy. The end of the profit motive means that cost can become less important when weighted other measures of impact.

As certain industries become obsolete, the job becomes obsolete too. Yes many workers would have to stop working in the fossil fuel industry if we significantly cut our usage, as the scientific conclusions tell us we must. But that doesn't mean these workers would have to become unemployed. Society could and should provide these workers with education and training for new jobs that are created as we advance. Does any worker work in the coal mines or the oil fields because they like the idea of digging coal out of the ground or drilling for oil?

Caleb Foster
Caleb Foster

If they wanted to they could

But a lot of those jobs suck anyway. A lot of those oil jobs are in some remote shithole where you live 10 to a trailer and work for months at a time.

Carson Jones
Carson Jones

most of the jobs in fossil fuels are shit anyway. if workers own the means of productions, they would still have access to resources, job or without job, but they will simply be offered another jobs and can be retrained for free to these new jobs.

Connor Rodriguez
Connor Rodriguez

Well one, assuming this is socialism they would be given a job doing whatever else is needed. They could be moved to working similar jobs at cleaner energy depots - I'm not sure I really understand the question. The transition away from "dirty energy" to clean would be a lot smoother under socialism, right now the main forces behind the oil industry are a small substrate of men with ludicrous amounts of money and thus, power.

Kayden Rogers
Kayden Rogers

would there be any reason to use oil and coal if profit incentive was removed?

Dominic Martinez
Dominic Martinez

Externalities are the result of putting ptofits first

Tyler Perry
Tyler Perry

Communism requires a high degree of automation, so what "jobs" are you talking about?

Julian Jenkins
Julian Jenkins

Do you know what the word "environment" actually means? It's the air your workers breathe. It's the land your workers grow food on and live on.

This is cutting-off-your-face-to-save-your-nose levels of retardation.

Gabriel Bailey
Gabriel Bailey

This is why a state is still necessary. What's good for a community may still not be good for a country or a nation. Some degree of regulation to protect the environment will still be important.

Brody Moore
Brody Moore

state
country
nation

Caleb Anderson
Caleb Anderson

This is the right answer. You need proper planning mechanisms to make production sustainable within our environment again

Carson Green
Carson Green

Decentralizing and democratizing politics and industry as much as possible would go a long way towards curbing excessive development and environmental degradation. Global supply chains and globalized economies need to be abolished for all but the rarest of goods; economies need to exist at local or regional levels, with long-distance trade limited to uncommon goods or luxuries.

Most people do give a shit about preserving their local environment and way of life, but it's exceedingly difficult to scale that attitude up to care about the nation or the planet as a whole. A socialist system needs local, regional democracy in order to empower the people to protect their own homes and environments from destruction. You can go to any locality in America and find anti-development, anti-growth sentiment, but the people who voice these opinions often aren't organized and have no political power, especially when it comes to national and international economies, so capitalist exploitation and environmental destruction proceeds as usual.

Logan Brooks
Logan Brooks

even under socialism
especially without the state?
plz

Robert Brooks
Robert Brooks

1012181
Can you hear that? It's the stupid dorks calling you back to reddit.

Jacob Sanchez
Jacob Sanchez

even under socialism, with workers ownership of the means of production, how would you solve the issue of environmental destruction?
You don't. Without markets you can't do large-scale reuse or recycling. Water that was used for cleaning is dumped into the sea instead of being filtered, because filtration systems and biodegradable cleansers are for capitalist pigs.

Cameron Smith
Cameron Smith

1012181
Are you denying that ayncraps want a society with private businesses (and the hierarchy inherent to such a thing)?

Liam Phillips
Liam Phillips

Why would people want to continue working a destructive industry if they didn't have to? Especially since there would be no material benefit to doing so.
Socialism isn't simply giving existing enterprises to the workers that work in them, it's the total socialisation and integration of all enterprises (which negates their existence as a result). In such a situation people aren't going to be in the position to run a particular factory or power plant independently, even if you somehow took control of an individual means of production, you couldn't run it because there would be no market to buy the inputs necessary: they'd be dependent on resource allocation from the very people they aren't cooperating with.

Hudson Bell
Hudson Bell

That is the real response to OP's question. Without the profit motive, nuclear, solar, wind, and hydroelectric are not only viable but superior power sources.

Carter Myers
Carter Myers

Without the profit motive, nuclear, solar, wind, and hydroelectric are not only viable but superior power sources.
Solar and wind are viable mostly in the ocean. Viability on land is limited to only a few locations.

Hydroelectric is not "viable" for the marine life that live near it.

Without markets, the steel and concrete required to make the generators never get invented. The real estate needed to install them is instead used for farming or "safe spaces."

The only way you'd be able to invent anything is to do like the Chinese and send pony-tailed feminist sluts to engage in industrial espionage.

Luke Campbell
Luke Campbell

And don't forget that the idea that a man must work 8 hours a day for less than he's worth to barely pay the rent is spooky capitalist thinking. Communism doesn't need one 8 hour job per person, so long as production meets or exceeds consumption (as it does now, in most cases). 4 day work week, 4 hour work days, guaranteed access to basic resources equivalent to their share of labour, sons.

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