Is the "No kill rule" outdated and nonsensical? Should superheroes be allowed...

Caleb Murphy
Caleb Murphy

Is the "No kill rule" outdated and nonsensical? Should superheroes be allowed to kill or not?

Connor King
Connor King

Should superheroes be allowed to kill or not?
If you kill one, only another worse offender will take its place.

Bentley Cooper
Bentley Cooper

Probably not? Honestly, if the comics where realistic the government would just give the bad guys the Death penalty easily and with no issue.

David Miller
David Miller

It can be used well, but usually isn't. In case of Marvel and DC it is only used as a cheap crutch that allows them to endlessly reuse characters and remove need to come up with new ideas. It would be excusable if villains learned and changed with every capture and break from jail, but that doesn't happen.

Let's take Batman as an example. Current use of no kill rule is shit, and Batman is just fighting windmills at the end of the day. Sooner or later a villain will break out
How about if Bruce Wayne would do something too? He could money and effort to develop a prison and mental care system that would aim to rehabilitate cases where it's possible and safely contain *and study) ones that are hopeless. Every time someone would break out, Batman would have to hunt them down, and Bruce would have to improve his institution and face public opinion's backlash. Batman could also shadow inmates that were rehabilitated, making sure that they are not a danger and that the institution works.
That way Batman's insistence on not killing would be more understandable, and it would provide another avenue to carry on his family's legacy. But it's not the Batman that's easy to write and not what most people who still buy comics are used to.

Jayden Ward
Jayden Ward

Batman does all the things you mentioned

Charles Morgan
Charles Morgan

In that case never mind. I should have added that most recent proper Batman book I read was Miller's 1st issue of All-Star Batman and other than that most of my exposure to Batman comes from animated versions and an odd storytime or an elseworld story.

Jeremiah Anderson
Jeremiah Anderson

most of my exposure to Batman comes from animated versions
He did most of those things in Batman: The Animated Series as well

Cooper Adams
Cooper Adams

They made a whole mini-series explaining why superheroes shouldn't kill.

Justin Lee
Justin Lee

When they just keep breaking out of prison and killing people again and again and again it's better to kill them, but the reason they aren't killed is the same reason they manage to break out every time - that it lets you write new stories.
Realistically it would be better to kill them, all other things equal, but realistically, you wouldn't have to because it would be possible to keep them locked up.

Josiah Sanders
Josiah Sanders

The reason superheroes are even tolerated in-universe is because they don't kill, otherwise you get a world where people are scared shitless of capes flying around and killing whoever the fuck they please. In universe if a villain really deserves death, it should be at the hands of the law, not the superheroes.

Jacob Long
Jacob Long

It makes sense for some, but not all. Characters like Superman, Batman, or Spider-Man should never kill under any circumstances. It shouldn't even teased as an option, unless you're a retarded hack who is trying to make your story seem more important.

I think it makes sense for some characters to kill depending on the situation. Captain America or Iron Man, for example. They shouldn't killing people left and right, but maybe if it meant protecting innocents in the moment. Someone like Steve Rogers would know that if he went around killing everyone that kids would see that. makes a good point too.

Nathaniel Mitchell
Nathaniel Mitchell

what if the ultimate hero isn't just a savior of innocents, but also of villains?

Samuel Kelly
Samuel Kelly

pff.

Eli Anderson
Eli Anderson

Batman: No

Everyone else: I do not care.
Doesn't Green Arrow kill people all the time?
I also didn't whine when Zodd was killed like a fat nerdy pussy, because that stupid ass family didn't move. They should get on court for obstructing Superman's law or something.

Carson Morris
Carson Morris

That would imply consequences.
Can't have that.
And even if they would od it, some writers would find a way to bring the villains back since thinking of new ones is too fucking hard.

Brody Jenkins
Brody Jenkins

Hercule saved Buu's life
Buu repaid the favor by stuffing his face full of candy and literally sleeping through all the most important moments of the series so far

Carter Miller
Carter Miller

Yes having them fight the same enemy over and over is annoying as fuck.

Angel Taylor
Angel Taylor

As well on the DC side of things superheros has the Spectre breathing down their collective necks.
Why he doesn't start judging villians left and right is a whole nother issue.

Nolan Phillips
Nolan Phillips

So how is it the other "worse offender" doesn't already exist until you kill a villian?

Kayden Perry
Kayden Perry

Is the "No kill rule" outdated and nonsensical?

Of course not. When used properly, it creates another challenge for the character to overcome, which makes for good storytelling.

The real issue is since 1986, writers and editors have been dragging these characters into a pit of black nihilism for empty drama and cheap sales gimmicks. How can we root for Batman when every villain he faces kills 10+ people? How can we support him when the bulk of his rogues aren't adequately punished for their crimes? How can we believe in him when Gotham is a perpetually rainy shit-hole that has no light of positive change whatsoever? HOW CAN WE ENDORSE HIS IDEALS WHEN HE IS SO WILLING TO THROW THEM AWAY?

They've created a situation where Batman's "no kill" rule looks retarded in the face of the insurmountable obstacles he's facing.

Ian Bell
Ian Bell

I like that Robot Chicken skit where Batman can't kill the Joker because of his "no kill rule", so the state decides to execute him at Batmans recomendation.

Adam Rogers
Adam Rogers

For the longest time, Batman felt that the Joker needed a lobotomy.

It would be great if Batman still believed that his enemies can be reformed. I guess such optimism gets in the way of punching and brooding.

Brayden Clark
Brayden Clark

Is the "No kill rule" outdated and nonsensical?
Not really. Not having any scruples about killing bad guys is usually depicted as a psychological slippery slope for a reason. Plus, it's hard to justify law and order w when you default to killing everybody you can't put in jail. Especially if you're not a cop or a government agent.

Unfortunately he's not really a character. Even Ennis said that a Punisher story is only as good as the scum he goes up against.

Dylan Thomas
Dylan Thomas

I prefer villains killing other villains to prevent them to turn the whole relation between villains and heroes too grimdark.

In a perfect world, classic jokers would kill and make disappear modern psichotic jokers for fucking with the game.

Zachary Perez
Zachary Perez

In a perfect world, classic jokers would kill and make disappear modern psichotic jokers for fucking with the game.

I'd prefer an M situation where the criminal underworld bands together to hunt down psycho jokers. Because psycho jokers bring increased police activity, which hurts their business.

Carter Young
Carter Young

I thought the message of the movie was that people can take justice on their own hands and that it was also the fault of parents for not caring about their children in life.

Nicholas Gutierrez
Nicholas Gutierrez

It depends on the severity and unreliability of the person in question.
For example silly joker should just be thrown in jail. Red Hood/Dark Knight Returns joker should have been killed on the spot.

Adam Turner
Adam Turner

But what if the law is fucking stupid and the hero goes out of their way to save the villain?
I really hated the end to red hood.

Aiden White
Aiden White

I thought the message of the movie was that people can take justice on their own hands

No, because all the people in that room are criminals. They're not looking for "justice". They're looking for revenge and protecting their own self-interest. As the film points out, the entire "court" is hypocrisy, as the crowd holds Hans to standards they certainly don't hold for themselves. Even worse, Hans is mentally ill and can't help what he does, while the mob of crooks all actively choose to cheat, steal, and murder. The entire sham of their "court" is purely to preserve their sense of moral superiority.

The film is grey when it comes to both the child murdering Hans and the criminals who want to kill him. The only objectively good party is the police. They try really, really hard, but the public both demand results and are incredible uncooperative.

James Ward
James Ward

When the rogues gallery of different heroes were jack heist-pulling goons with gadgets and gimmicks, then the no-kill rule made sense. At the end of the day, they were just committing pretty mundane crimes with lots of flare and theatrics. However, once comics started getting edgy and supervillains started blowing up buildings and murdering rooms full of babies and kicking puppies, in between escaping from prison on a regular basis, it became obvious that someone needed to start killing them. Even if it's just the cop who accidentally discharges his firearm into the side of their skull while cuffing them.

Ryder Anderson
Ryder Anderson

this. Killing should be on the table in certain extreme scenarios. "No Killing" is fine as a guideline, but having it be this completely unbreakable ironclad rule is retarded, every time a villain escapes and murders someone after his initial capture that blood is on the heroes hands for being selfish and refusing to do what's necessary. The part that bothers me the most is the logic used to justify "no killing" is almost always the cliche "if I kill them then i'll turn into everything i hate and stand against" which is extremely infantile thinking, a cop who kills a dangerous criminal in self defense is not instantly the same as a psychopathic serial killer.

Michael Wood
Michael Wood

the big 2 can't into nuance though, so your only real choices are no killing ever or maximum edgelord 90's characters like kane and azrael-batman.

Carter Wood
Carter Wood

Azbats wasn't maximum edgelord. He never actually killed anybody with his bare hands, he just let one guy fall to his death (because of the voices in his head) and thereby doomed his hostage

Evan Young
Evan Young

Police are permitted to use lethal force because they have a proper system of training and accountability behind them. Someone who came to possess magical powers by accident does not. The authorities are generous enough allowing superheroes to intervene in and stop crime, but if ever a hero was to kill someone, he would need to be detained, the situation assessed and possible murder or manslaughter charges would be pressed. If it became a common problem, the permissive attitude towards the superhero community would need to be reassessed.

"But the villains always escape and kill more people." So why doesn't the criminal justice system formally execute them if they're such a danger and rehabilitation is too unlikely? Well, we know why, but the question should be why aren't you asking about state executions instead of street killings? If one person is too dangerous to be permitted to live, that is not a decision that should be made by a single, unaccountable person in anything but the absolute worst of situations.

Luke White
Luke White

Unfortunately he's not really a character.
wat

Owen Brown
Owen Brown

There's no cape book where the hero has to file paper work with the police

That would make an interesting Batman comic.

Josiah Wilson
Josiah Wilson

/leftypol/index.html
begone, nigger

Elijah Parker
Elijah Parker

939939
How about replying with an actual response instead of cringey reaction images you either made yourself or found in the autistic depths of 9gag.

Nathaniel Lopez
Nathaniel Lopez

if superheros kill then fascism!
Crash Retold told the story better anyway tbh

Leo Baker
Leo Baker

As superheroes represent an ideal, finding a solution involving the minimum amount of violence necessary should be a part of that ideal (except for the Punisher).
The problem is that "spare them if you can" has been unilaterally interpreted as "if the homicidal maniac dies you'll feel a fuckton of guilt and angst for the next 50 years of publication"

The writing philosophy should be altered in such a way that the hero isn't necessarily trying to kill the villain but the villain is still allowed to die, either as a result of pushing the hero too far or being hoist by their own petard.
A great example of this almost being done right is in Joker's Favor, when Charlie Collins has a bomb right in Joker's face. Batman tries to talk him down but ultimately doesn't interfere, letting Charlie have his much justified revenge if he'll take it.

Jordan Cooper
Jordan Cooper

If you kill, then you become just as bad as the villains
This logic has always baffled me, because so much of what heroes stand for, especially Batman, is about bringing justice to those who break the law, and then reforming them. The goal is ultimately to make them stop being villains or to even put their talents to good use for the sake of others. Which means the ultimate moral of the story is that redemption is always possible, no matter how much evil someone has done.

..But if a hero commits one act of questionable evil (killing a killer) that means they are beyond redemption and must become an amoral psychopath who will try to take over the world because they'll be so emotional and mentally compromised that totalitarian conquest is the only thing that will sate their monstrous appetite for slaughter.

Asher Brown
Asher Brown

whole mini-series

Castle only needed one scene to prove them wrong.

Easton Harris
Easton Harris

Yes. I would be okay with pacifist good guys if they chopped bad guys' arms off. Even Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi had no problem doing that. How are prison guards suppose to keep super villains locked up? They don’t have a chance. Maiming bad guys makes them much less of a threat. They’ll live.

Cameron Jenkins
Cameron Jenkins

In I think Spinnerette there's a chapter touching on the legal dimension of superheroing, explaining among other things that even after heroes apprehend a villain they're obligated to give testimony at the villain's trial afterwards. The Marvel Universe likewise has laws in place pertaining to superheroes, and those probably include laws against killing. I don't know about DC, but Batman in particular tends to be the lawful type, so he doesn't kill because he doesn't want to be anymore of a criminal than he technically already is by going out as a vigilante.
In short, the answer is probably "no, superheroes aren't allowed to kill, because it's against the law" but in practice seeing a hero kill a villain is hardly unheard of, considering how easily they can make a case for legal self-defense. The law also fails to account for superpowered criminals who are simply too strong to be detained, so maybe whatever legal framework decides if superheroes can kill should be tweaked to take exceptional situations/opponents into account.

Jaxson Allen
Jaxson Allen

Dark Knight Returns Joker was killed. Granted, it was suicide, but Batman at least strongly considered killing him right up until the moment of truth

Ryder Williams
Ryder Williams

It would be great if Batman still believed that his enemies can be reformed
I think after fighting most of them for about 70 years even he would have realised that ship has sailed

Chase Hernandez
Chase Hernandez

laws against killing

Killing is not against the law. Murder and manslaughter are illegal. Not killing.

Jack Kelly
Jack Kelly

Should superheroes be allowed to kill or not?
they are not forbidden of doing it, it is all matter of who is writing it. Of course if the character is written with a no killing rule for decades it would feel weird to change it suddenly,

Anthony Brown
Anthony Brown

I don't mind the "no kill" rule at all, but I DO mind every hero ever having it. I like the difference in philosophy between Superman and Batman's no kill rules for instance. Superman wants to show people there is always another way. Batman is afraid he wouldn't be able to stop killing to solve his problems. But when every single hero always has the No Kill rule it becomes pretty stupid, because when ever someone breaks it it's always portrayed as them long jumping off the slippery slope like Godspeed or the Vice Squad, or their one killing is treated as completely unforgivable like Flash and Reverse Flash. As I kid I really liked the idea of a hero never killing someone, and I don't hate it now because I don't like the idea any less, I'm just tired of it being the only route a superhero can take.

Aiden Butler
Aiden Butler

Doesn't Green Arrow kill people all the time?
Grell's Green Arrow shot people with real arrows

Carson Hernandez
Carson Hernandez

I once saw someone ask what the hell the world did with supervillains when superheroes were banned in The Incredibles and someone suggested this. A prequel with that sounds like it would be way better than whatever they'll do in the real sequel.

Jaxson Morales
Jaxson Morales

It would be great if Batman still believed that his enemies can be reformed. I guess such optimism gets in the way of punching and brooding.
It's refreshing in Rebirth to see a hand full of villains getting reformed like Clayface and Bizzaro (kinda).
Police are permitted to use lethal force to defend themselves, not because some people deserve to be killed. Situations like Chris Dorner for instance was a clear cut case of the police drastically overstepping their boundaries in which lethal force is authorized.
What is meant is that the Punisher is incredibly 2-Dimensional. His incredibly hard black and white stance allows for basically no character growth ever. And while I LOVE Punisher comics, I don't love the Punisher as a character, it's the cathartic feeling of watching a man cold-heartedly gun down bad people by the hundreds.
I always hate when Superheros show a direct unwillingness to work along side the police force. It puts them squarely in the line of "vigilantism" instead of "Well meaning people who want to help." Recentely in the Arrow TV show, on of the heroes discovered the evil masked man's identity while ON DUTY AS A COP and only ever shared this information with her superhero friends, and never told the cops. It basically corrupted the character, as she apparently believed the entire police force was useless. It throws the believablility of "We deal with threats they can't" out the fucking window.
Green Arrow avoids killing people as much as possible, but will eventually take a look at some bad guy and decide that he has to go down permanently to keep people safe.

Matthew Morris
Matthew Morris

but I DO mind every hero ever having it
It's even dumber when you consider the cosmic side of things where you have all these "space cop" characters like Green Lantern and Nova who should be authorized to use lethal force when necessary, but never do (at least to my knowledge it's been a long time since i've read their book).

Leo Rivera
Leo Rivera

Police are permitted to use lethal force to defend themselves

In America, everybody has that right. All superheroes have to do is kill bad guys and say self defense.

It puts them squarely in the line of "vigilantism"

What's wrong with that? Vigilantes are heroes.

she apparently believed the entire police force was useless

Good. That's the entire point of superheroes. The corrupt system doesn't work. If it did work, then superheroes wouldn't be needed in the first place.

Zachary Clark
Zachary Clark

It puts them squarely in the line of "vigilantism"
Why do you pretend to like capes when you hate one of the central pillars of the genre?

Colton Scott
Colton Scott

Superhero goes to court
<Laserman, could you explain, in your own words, why you used your lasers to kill Murderer Mike, the alien supervillain who murders everyone he meets?
Well, your honor, I feared for my life and the lives of everyone in the area. We've got footage of the whole incident, don't we?
<Now at what point did you feel your life was threatened, Laserman?
it was right at about the point where he was reaching for a nearby child and monologuing how he was going to kill the child, then kill me, then kill all my loved ones.
<Alright, you are free to go.

Tyler Moore
Tyler Moore

I mean in the sense that it's often used in capeshit. Superheroes don't go around fighting crime because the police are useless, but because they want to help. When it comes to supervillains, they actually aren't, but they aren't useless for literally everything. And in the situation I was giving, the "bad guy" was literally just a former evil guy in some spandex. Characters like the Punisher are perfectely fine, because they genuinely don't think the police can do anything. They think the system is broken. But 90% of superheroes are there to help, not "do the job for them." But if they sey they just want to help, but spend time stealing from evidence lockers to investigate it themselves and refusing to give essential information to the police, then their characterization goes out the fucking window.

Luke Lopez
Luke Lopez

the Green Lanterns have an extreme definition of "when necessary"
it takes something along the lines of the events of GL 55-56 to release the no-kill policy (a full on war against everyone the Guardians have ever imprisoned, masterminded by not-Al Capone)

Jason Howard
Jason Howard

I agree with this. It goes back to the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" thing.

Christian Morales
Christian Morales

This sort of story set in the 30's, with the mob teaming up to take out the Joker, and Batman having to indirectly 'save' him, would be interesting. But only if it was done in the style of 30's batman, no muh oppressed negro jazz pianist subplot.
Also an Elseworlds "Punisher" book where it turns out the Punisher doesn't actually exist, he's just a rumour made up by Batman so criminals will be glad no-kill Batman got to them first, might be amusing.

Isaiah Cook
Isaiah Cook

why doesnt he just shot the chamber of the rifle?

Adrian Campbell
Adrian Campbell

1. Daredevil doesn't know anything about guns.
2. Frank turns and takes aim before Matt can take a shot.
3. The pistol isn't loaded. Frank was just making a point.

Lucas Kelly
Lucas Kelly

Depends how its done. If it's done like Captain America or Wonder Woman where they kill only if they really need to then yeah I can see that working.

Liam Watson
Liam Watson

You only need a bad day, user. What if the villain was your father or something? What if his dead inspire some kind of rebellion against superheroes?
I think the no kill logic is exemplary and symbolic.

Camden Jackson
Camden Jackson

Except for the fact that people hate criminals and terrorists so much that no one would care if they got lasered off the planet, the phillipines loves their president for murdering the shit out of gang members.

Aiden Wilson
Aiden Wilson

They should be at least permitted to maim or permanently injure.

Bentley Reed
Bentley Reed

Comic writers are to obsessed with edgelording to the extreme to make the no kill rule outdated and nonsensical. It's a self referencing paradox. The villain might as well know that they are in a comic book and no matter how horrific their actions are that they'll be back to do more stuff eventually.

Ironically, it doesn't matter if they kill them or not. Because if they did kill the villains, they'd either come back from the dead or an exact replica would show up in under a month. So the whole exercise becomes pointless.

Daniel Morales
Daniel Morales

If you kill one, only another worse offender will take its place.
Just kill him too

David Perry
David Perry

The current writing of the 'No Killing' rule is fucking stupid and it's because people don't understand why it's so important for Vigilantes to not kill.

Force, violence, is a monopoly held by the state, in a democracy it's under the common consent and supervision of the people. When the state uses violence, it is using it with the understanding that it is doing it with the consent of the people in a very narrow and specifically defined way.

A Vigilante is not an agent of that state, in fact it's the exact opposite, it is a criminal using force at his own discretion, without the approval and oversight of the people. This is why it's so important that vigilantes not exercise the final sanction of physical force, ending a life. Not if they want to pretend to be fighting for some type of greater good.

When restrained, a vigilante can be seen as a force for good, even if it isn't with the consent of the people, because sometimes you need an outside, independent force to fight things the state and the people cannot. Super powered enemies are just a lazy way to create such a threat that only singular, independent vigilantes can deal with.

Unfortunately, people don't understand the basics of statecraft and the implications and understanding between the people and the state, so it's devolved into 'durr, they don't kill because it's the right thing to do'. No, fuckhead, they don't kill because they are an independent, unsanctioned CRIMINAL doing whatever he thinks is right without any oversight. If he's just punching bad guys and letting the police take them, at least it's likely that anything he's done can be undone by the state or the people if they find out he fucked up. Once he starts dropping people into graves, he's no longer reliable and must be discarded.

Jackson Wright
Jackson Wright

all this and the notion of a vigilante dispensing the death penalty on his whim goes against the whole notion of a code of law with fixed punishments, or at least one that isn't decided by one person and skips due process, which really ties back into what you already said. There is just something disturbing about someone going around as judge,jury,executioner, and legislator which is why when someone does do that, they are always depicted as villains.

Adam Cruz
Adam Cruz

which is why when someone does do that, they are always depicted as villains.

Levi Bennett
Levi Bennett

The fuck he does.
The
Fucking
Fuck
Fuckity
Fuck
He
Does.

All the fucking famous names in Gotham constantly get out, harm innocent, kill people, destroy, maim and so on so forth.
You know why he doesn't kill them?
Because he *needs* them.
He needs villains because otherwise he can't be a hero, if there is no crime there is no vigilante.
Bruce is addicted to being the Batman, plain and simple.
Villains like the Joker cannot be cured, it's clear as day, for fucking years they came back and caused chaos and for fucking years he went chasing them and slapped them on their wrist.
One could of course argue that it should be the judiciary system to give them the death penalty but still, god fucking damn it, just kill the fucker.
To clean things you need to get dirty, if you're not willing to get dirty you're not even scratching the surface.

Carson Mitchell
Carson Mitchell

Oh wow encyclopedia brown here cracked the case, Batman isn't mentally well you've come up with a revelation there champ.

Everybody knows the no-kill rule doesn't work anymore. In places like BTAS it worked because the villain, while criminals, were less murdery. In the comics they didn't get that memo though, and now Joker gets a slap on the wrist for murdering thousands.
But you know what? I still think Batman shouldn't kill. Because despite you being a psycho-analysis faggot, what have the people ever fucking done to solve that problem? Batman hands the Joker over on a silver platter and not the cops, nor the citizens, nor the government nor anyone actually tries to get him the Death Penalty. Because Batman is the hero the people deserve, and the citizens of the DC Universe are fucking morons.

Matthew Martin
Matthew Martin

The fault lies on the judiciary system, then, and that's simply faulty writing.
I mean come on, insanity defense is a fucking hard sell to begin with, let alone for multiple offenses and after a while its surprising the Joker hasn't had a bailiff just straight up shoot him in the back during a trial.

Adam Rivera
Adam Rivera

That's ironically how Death of the Family ended.

On a side note, that was an awful story. A mish-mash of half-baked ideas and weird symbolism that appeared to be more concerned with keeping the rule of cool instead of finding a theme and sticking to it. This problem becomes even more aggravating when this book is supposed to tell an intimate and character-focused story. I know Snyder is not that great of a writer, but whereas his nu52 was mediocre, DotF was just terrible.

Ayden Stewart
Ayden Stewart

implying he is good

Lucas Nelson
Lucas Nelson

you just need a bad day
I want jokerfags to leave
but yeah I agree that if capes start to pop nigger left and right normal people will ask the governments to stop that shitincidentally will make civil war plot coherent as a realty

Matthew Bell
Matthew Bell

Ok, lets be clear. The only reason they have the Joker be "insane" is because they thought it made Batman more "realistic". They thought it made more sense for all of Batman's villains to be mentally ill, for them to escape from an asylum instead of a prison, and for all of his costumed villains to be housed together in a ward instead of a cell-block. It's the fissure that finally broke Batman as a concept, because when they started ramping up the murder in the nineties, Batman was then rendered impotent against crime. Which subsequently lead to discussions like the one we're having now.

All of those problems have simple solutions, reserve arkham for the genuinely crazy villains like Two-Face, make it a ward of a larger penitentiary, have reoccurring rogues refrain from murder, and send Batman's villains to jail. Of course, DC's never going to do that. They've got a mature image to maintain.

Benjamin Russell
Benjamin Russell

Worm did something like this; generally villains just go to jail until they break out- but if they break out enough times or are far to dangerous to risk them going out in to the public they will be sent to the Birdcage; the most secure prison on the planet that no one ever has or ever does breakout of. Gangs and villains that create to much trouble risk the other gangs and villains teaming up to shut them down.

This is because, generally, neither heroes or villains are going all out with their powers; this is because the villains know if they do it'll bring the law right down on top of them, and heroes know that going all out will mean the villains will too which will cause massive collateral damage, it doesn't help that villains outnumber heroes almost 2-1. Not to mention if a REALLY bad threat comes along the heroes and villains will typically band together to fight it off, and these threats can range from a person or group that can wipe out entire teams of capes or can destroy entire cities and any and all help the heroes get is welcome.

And if someone does cross one to many lines? A kill order will be sent out straight from the government that means that anyone is allowed to kill you and will be paid for it too. Mostly reserved for major threats or hero killers.

Kevin Williams
Kevin Williams

I remember reading Batman Adventures years and years ago, and there was a story where the Riddler subconsciously leaves clues which help Batman find him. At the end of it he asks Batman to take him back to Arkham because he realizes that he might actually be crazy. I liked it, it made Arkham seem like a sensible concept in that instance.

But you're completely right, "insanity" only cuts it for very few of the Arkham inmates. Ad his regular rogues shouldn't be fucking murder machines.

William Martinez
William Martinez

Shut it, Buttman.

Luis Phillips
Luis Phillips

Punisher is different. Punisher only works if there is only one Punisher

Owen Powell
Owen Powell

Don't remind me of that edgy bullshit.

Leo Jackson
Leo Jackson

I fucking hate this type of writing for the BatFamily.

I like it when Bruce has a good relationship with Dick. With Tim. Hell I like it when he's written as still deeply loving Jason and Jason as being willing to help Bruce despite it all. I like it when the BatFamily is a family, not some edgy shit where everyone hates Bruce.

Kayden Morris
Kayden Morris

I liked the edge.

The edgy term is so fucking 2010-2015. When the Cuckchan pussies appeared and finally saw an opportunity to go against the shit they are too pussy for. "Oh noes horror/ violence/ rape, sooo edgy because I don't like it or can't stand it. You're all sooo stupid. Am I right cuckfriends? Now lets eat a salad or some shit while discussing the gender roles of The Big Bang Theory, our favorite show."

Gabriel Mitchell
Gabriel Mitchell

edgy retard spotted

Daniel Thomas
Daniel Thomas

If superheroes respected the law they wouldn't be vigilantes.

Jayden Taylor
Jayden Taylor

The Joker is an over-the-top mass murderer
he's killed by Magog
this is somehow going too far
Magog gets acquitted at trial since no jury would convict a man killing the Joker
Superman runs away instead of reining in the antiheroes
They run amuck
Over the top scenario happens.

No it didn't. The writer had a view of what superheroes should be and wrote an over-the- top scenario around it.

Superhero comic books and their apologists don't grasp the concept of self-defense.

Nobody was driven to avenge Ted Bundy.

Jordan Anderson
Jordan Anderson

/reddit/index.html

Christopher Rogers
Christopher Rogers

Superhero comic books and their apologists don't grasp the concept of self-defense.
I could easily see and in-universe explanation involving the idea that going on in costume to fight crime means you are proactively seeking trouble and not acting in self-defense. Either way, a book about superheroes and supervillains going to court would be interesting. No normal lawyer would defend a villain, especially not with some bullshit lesser charge like "Batman assaulted my client then fled the scene of a crime!" but some kind of supervillain lawyer that works with guys like The Penguin or Kingpin type characters, because any other lawyer that loses the case would be dead in a day.

Could lead to the case being brought all the way to the supreme court. They could even do the talking heads on tv thing they love so much, with commentators talking about amending the law and how it should be changed to account for superheroics, metahuman abilities, and international threats that cannot be handled by the military and world governments… But all of that would require good, intelligent writing.

Cooper Johnson
Cooper Johnson

Agreed. Recent Batman comics have done a pretty good job of portraying that, at least.

Nicholas Thompson
Nicholas Thompson

Why didn't a cop just shoot one of the villains though?

No kill rule

That's because they want re-occuring characters because they realised that's easy to sell to dumb adult men and kids.

Connor Reed
Connor Reed

Why didn't a cop just shoot one of the villains though?
That's actually the most unbelievable part. No that vigilantes have a no-kill rule, but that if the Joker was really that psychotic, there would have been a police officer plenty willing to give up his life and career to end the Joker.

Anthony Martinez
Anthony Martinez

Hasn't this happened before? I feel like I've seen a comic where a guy dresses up as Batman and shoots Joker in the face as soon as he sees him.

Asher Cruz
Asher Cruz

police officer plenty willing to give up his life and career to end the Joker

You mean a cop willing to be declared a hero and given a promotion for killing the mass murdering terrorist the Joker. Not even the scumbag BLM would open their stupid mouths to defend the Joker. Because the Joker is white.

Wyatt Reyes
Wyatt Reyes

they want re-occuring characters

Instead of making the good guys dumb pacifists with a no kill policy, make the bad guys smart enough to have an escape plan. Making all characters smarter is good writing.

It's hard to respect a hero that is always holding back his power. If Bane has a nuke and tries to destroy all of Gotham, Batman should be fighting 100%. He should be doing everything and anything in his power to save millions of lives. Including killing bad guys. Doing less than his best is irresponsible when that many lives are at stake.

Nathan Perez
Nathan Perez

Snyder go home

Landon Thomas
Landon Thomas

What is meant is that the Punisher is incredibly 2-Dimensional.
While I respect your right to have an incorrect opinion user I must disagree and respectfully call you a faggot.

Grayson Hernandez
Grayson Hernandez

In places like BTAS it worked
As near as I can figure, BTAS Batman tried to kill (or neglected to save) Joker, Clayface, and probably a few others on many occasions. Same with Superman. Bruce Timm is a bit flexible on no-kill rules, or at least applies some degree of common sense.

Oliver Watson
Oliver Watson

Yes. Massively. Man Of Steel is the blueprint.

Lots of collateral damage, and evil jackasses who can't be reached being executed.

Nathaniel Rodriguez
Nathaniel Rodriguez

The charm of Dredd is that he can play on any role: a neutral party, a pretty entertaining anti-hero, an actual hero and a villain
On the surface he can come as 1-dimensional, but any given story he can pull out some really interesting stuff

Isaiah Sanchez
Isaiah Sanchez

Lawyer for supervillains
Technically there is a dent, but I don't see him properly representing anyone else but himself.
Character like that would be pretty interesting. Someone who is Batman's villain, but instead of actually committing crime, that someone just undoes Batman's efforts. Everything is done by the book, lawyer always keeps hands clean, and because of that he or she is someone that Batman cannot touch.

courtroom drama comic with Batman villains
It could be pretty interesting, especially with Dent talking his way out, using legal loopholes, and managing to get off on technicality.
Other than that it would be interesting to see a villain's story that begins with them getting caught, sent to court, then prison, and then trying to get out. Riddler could just treat the break out as a puzzle, Mad Hatter could desperately jury-rig a mind control device of some sort with limited resources, Strange would manipulate his way out of prison and so on. Story would end with a successful breakout. Was there ever a book like that?

Noah Anderson
Noah Anderson

Someone who came to possess magical powers by accident does not
The solution is simple.

Have the Super Hero's either join the police or become them.

Carter Reyes
Carter Reyes

Force, violence, is a monopoly held by the state, in a democracy it's under the common consent and supervision of the people
Except for the 2nd Amendment and Self-Defense

Ayden Bell
Ayden Bell

Worm

Wildbow's fanfic generation work of fiction? Ugh.

Jonathan Morris
Jonathan Morris

ugh
You have to go back

Hudson Ortiz
Hudson Ortiz

Man of Murder
Nah. I like my superheroes to be heroic and save people rather than finding the slightest excuse to murder millions of innocents.

Mason Thompson
Mason Thompson

A Vigilante is not an agent of that state, in fact it's the exact opposite, it is a criminal using force at his own discretion, without the approval and oversight of the people.
What if the vigilante just walks around the bad part of town and blows away the villain when they try to mug him?

Ayden Brown
Ayden Brown

dent as lawyer
During cataclysm? he kidnaped Gordon while having Montoya in hostage making a run for the court house to pin the fault of a bad done deal between the two faction of the blue boys and his faction…gordon had done a deal with Dent for weapons or supplies or whatever, and for a Non belligerant pact using Montoya as a messenger. Dent kept Montoya in prisoned suspecting a double cross from Jim at the court house he acted as a lawyer again which made both attacker as two face and defender as Dent. Montoya was eyewitness.
was a nice side story looking Dent arguing with himself for the fault of the problem, obviously two face wanted to kill Jim but at the end Dent could snatch a final argument against the proofs and let him go

Connor Nguyen
Connor Nguyen

No found out was No men's land arc story…what the fuck happen to my pics? They are not in the order I've posted them

Hudson Baker
Hudson Baker

Have the Super Hero's join the police or become them.
Everyone in this thread seems to be focusing on "vigilantism" and specifically on guys like Batman and Superman, the problem with your suggestion is that there are numerous examples of capes who do just as you suggest and yet still more or less live by the "no kill" rule.
as previously mentioned ITT Green Lantern and Nova
Both intergalactic space cops.
Captain America
Was a level 9 clearance agent of SHIELD and still technically active duty military.
Iron Man
Stark was the goddamn U.S. security of defense and later the director of SHIELD.
Spider-Woman
Also an agent of SHIELD at one point.
Super Hero Registration Act/50 State Initiative
Turned all capes who signed it into agents of the U.S. government.

As others have said I have no problem with the "no kill" rule being a general guideline for heroes to follow, as long as it's flexible and done realistically. A good example of this was Cyclops forming X-Force when mutants nearly went extinct. This allowed the X-Men to retain a good public "no kill" image, but also allowed them to dispatch high level threats in secret. A great example of the "no kill" rule looking completely outdated and ridiculous would be the terrible Daredevil event Shadowland.
Daredevil reluctantly decides to takeover and lead the hand.
everyones okay with this
Turns Hell's Kitchen into his own private fiefdom, replaces the cops with his own force of ninja assassins, creates his own dungeons in the NYC sewers, and remodels the entire neighborhood to look like feudal Japan.
"w-well Matt said it'll just be temporary we trust him"
daredevil finally kills bullseye a psychopathic mass murderer who kills almost everyone he comes across and who just a few pages earlier broke out of jail for the 16th time and murdered like 9 prison guards on his way out.
"OMG Matt has gone too far, he's lost his mind and must be stopped, assemble the heroes we have to take him down! How dare he kill a serial killing maniac! Not on our watch!"

Kevin Lopez
Kevin Lopez

The no kill rule has become another crack in the foundation of these worlds. I can't even get into Batman because I find it so utterly ridiculous that so many repeat mass murderers are not executed by the state or Batman. I find it impossible to suspend disbelief and enjoy the story. No kill worked when the villains were mostly robbers or killed rival criminals. When the threats escalated the response had to. If say Batman was real, people would be up in arms that the state didn't execute the criminals or grant Batman the authority to. Most superheroes operate in this ridiculous world, and it undermines the appeal of the superhero genre.

Bentley Morales
Bentley Morales

Depends on the hero.

I think it's unbelievable that Batman doesn't kill someone, if only by accident. I really wish they'd de-emphasize his combat skills and go back to writing him as a master detective/ strategist. Wouldn't even care if they had to rip off Sherlock Holmes again to do it.

Superman I get. If he starts killing people, he'd end up like a god deciding who lives and dies and he just doesn't want that burden. Further he has the ability to save people he's incapacitating. He also has a decent prison he can send people to; if writers didn't keep breaking physics to make it a revolving door.

Wonder Woman probably should kill or her backstory/ arsenal needs changed. I'd love it if she'd only kill "worthy opponents" and treated mercy as a statement of contempt.

This is a little /tg/ for Holla Forums but I liked how my GM handled it in a super hero game we played.

Long and short of it is, we operated in an official government capacity, we were essentially cops. If we killed someone in the line of duty we had to go through an official inquest, during which he'd separate us all, question everyone about their version of events, and then decide if the incident justified a trial. He also made it easy to kill on accident. If we punched a random mook and knockback would take him out a window on the 22nd story, one of us would either have to save him, or the guy throwing the punch would get to go through the investigation. We also had a vigilante like Punisher running around I'm led to believe he based him off Blue Knight in Astro City, but he wouldn't sanitize it like Marvel does. Innocent people did die in the cross fire between the vigilante and the gang. It'd usually be the gang's bullets that hit the civilians, but it was the vigilante causing a fucking gun fight in the middle of an apartment building. In our case, the gang would surrender when we knocked down the door cause they'd only go to prison.

It just helped me realize no-one actually wants the fucking Punisher running around. They may want specific villains taken care of, but fights are too uncontrollable to have someone known for not taking prisoners.

Luis Brown
Luis Brown

I really wish they'd de-emphasize his combat skills and go back to writing him as a master detective/ strategist.

Ah, but that would involve reading something other than comic books. The reason writers like Finger and O'Neil were good at it was because they were relatively well read. Finger especially was infamous for keeping track of the most trivial of information to use later in stories.

However, with entry into the direct market, there came a lower standard for writing, which eventually lead us to the nadir that we're in.

Wonder Woman probably should kill or her backstory/ arsenal needs changed.

WW shouldn't kill because that goes against the original point of her character. If I recall, WW was basically Sailor Moon before such a concept, in that she solved her problems with love and womanly virtues instead of brutality.

That's a big issue I have with the WW movie. WW isn't about how women can kick ass, it's about how women are so powerful they DON'T need to kick ass.

Anthony Harris
Anthony Harris

Wonder Woman reaches her enemies for a hug
They start crying
They tell her their sob story, and the confess everything they have done
WW pats their back as she handcuffs them
Villain sobs his way to the police station
WW gives them a goodbye kiss in the cheek as she tells them everything will be okay
I would actually read that shit.

William Gonzalez
William Gonzalez

I should have specified that, that the permission to use force is outside the realms of simple self defense. In most free societies, every person has the right to use force to defend themselves, but only the state holds the right to use it outside of that context.

I honestly can't tell if you are joking or not.

Aiden Bennett
Aiden Bennett

BTAS Batman tried to kill (or neglected to save) Joker, Clayface, and probably a few others
Meh, maybe one or two times in the entire DCAU, but most times he did save Joker, even from entirely self inflicted harm. And Clayface, what are you talking about? In his first appearance Clayface electrocuted himself by smashing all those monitors that were showing him all his former acting roles, which was a ruse anyway. In his second, Batman tried to save him, but couldn't hold on to him due to his bodily integrity deteriorating, so Clayface fell down a cliff and into the sea, where he dissolved. Not much he could do there.
Anyway, what you're describing would generally be my ideal approach to Batman: not going out and actively killing people, but also not giving a shit if mass murdering super villains die in the heat of battle or under different circumstances.

Kinda surprised nobody has brought up Devil's Advocate yet ITT. Anybody remember this shitshow of a comic, in which Joker finally gets sent to death row for murdering someone, but Batman saves him because he didn't commit this particular crime? Personally this was for me the point, where I couldn't take Batman as a character serious anymore.
m-muh justice
muh law
I can't let the real murderer get away with it
Joker goes back to Arkham of course and after that, in the following years, happily kills more and more people.
And mind you, we're not talking about silver age Joker, this is bronce age joker, who crippled Barbara, killed Jason and did tons of other shit.
Bruce is a goddamned fucking retard. He just couldn't let the state kill him, than go "whoops, guess he didn't do it" and than go after the real killer, as if anybody would give a fuck. And even if he couldn't catch him anymore it would still be a net win, cause that one guy on the loose would never be able to do as much harm to society as the motherfucking Joker, even if he tried.

Of course, I know that by now Batman is characterized as being obsessed with justice, compulsive about it to a point, that he's almost as crazy as his villains. But still, at what point is a character so flawed, that he can't even be called a hero anymore? Maybe I'm just too old fashioned but a hero to me is not some goodie two shoes, but someone who does the right thing at the right time and place, and when it comes to walking genocides like the Joker, the right thing to do would be to put the fucker down.
But it's pretty much futile to argue about in universe reasons and justifications for killing or not killing. As we all know, they keep reusing villains because they sell (somewhat), because they lack creativity and because this genre is full of hack writers.

Xavier Robinson
Xavier Robinson

Wonder Woman becomes Wonder Mom
She fights for justice using motherly domination

We have to fight for a future where this can happen.

Brody Powell
Brody Powell

Honestly, for as much as the big 2 like having new people take on various heroes' identities, they do it surprisingly infrequently with villains. The joker in particular would make a lot more sense as an inevitable meme, a twisted ideal that some psycho or another will inevitably gravitate to, than he does as one dude who never gets taken out of the game

Nathan White
Nathan White

Reminder that any society that depends on vigilantes, let alone superpowered ones, to fight criminals and other monsters is more or less a failed state. The whole "superheroes can't kill their enemies since something law decide dies" falls apart since a key assumption in superhero stories is that the superhero/s is the only one capable of handling his enemies.

The cops can't catch the Joker. The jails/asylums can't hold him or Two-Face or Penguin or Ra's Al-Ghul. And that's not bringing up the rogues galleries where for the likes of Superman or Green Lantern. With this in consideration, being more or less the law of the land Superlad would have the de facto authority to decide "who lives or dies" as you put it.

Thomas Gomez
Thomas Gomez

And that's not bringing up the rogues galleries where for the likes of Superman or Green Lantern
But the Green Lanterns at least ARE cops

Matthew Parker
Matthew Parker

Cops who answer to foreign governments on Earth soil.

Camden Gray
Camden Gray

Batman's no killing rule also wakens the whole 'inspiring fear into the hearts of criminals' thing. Batman is less scary than super villains most goons work for, other criminals, an average cop, or even a civilian with a weapon. Even if he routinely maims and cripples criminals, ending on a wheelchair is preferable to taking a bullet to the head.

Jaxon Green
Jaxon Green

The fear thing only works when Batman is more of a myth. As soon as he becomes a known entity that definitely exists he wouldn't be nearly as scary to criminals. That's why stories where Batman is in his early years tend to be better (when going for a dark style).

Mason Carter
Mason Carter

Batman's no killing rule also wakens the whole 'inspiring fear into the hearts of criminals' thing

I always thought he inspired fear over how relentless he was. Batman has dedicated his entire life to fighting crime. He has numerous strange gadgets and a near limitless amount of information at his disposal, all to bring criminals to justice. The criminal underworld would live in constant terror No racket can escape Batman's notice. No fool-proof plan can out-smart him. He becomes the ultimate boogeyman. If you choose to walk the path of crime and evil, the Batman will find you and bring you to justice.

It's because of that I always like the Golden Age when the public knew about Batman and Batman would at times display his crime fighting tools or let reporters into the bat-cave Of course, after blind-folding them and making absolutely sure there was no way they could discover it's location, including covering up every inch of rock surface just to keep Batman's lair a secret. He wanted criminals to know he was real, to know he had ways of finding them, and to realize the complete futility of being a criminal in Gotham City. That was how Batman spread fear into criminals, by demonstrating that he was an unstoppable, overpowering force against crime.

John Cox
John Cox

That sounds like a fun /tg/ game to play
Have you done it IRL or was via chat? A thread? Give me a link where I can read hat shit user

Isaiah Stewart
Isaiah Stewart

Seconding, I'd really like a spot.

Leo Perry
Leo Perry

re-occuring characters
Yet villains always die in the movies, if only to "raise the stakes" and bring in a new highly-paid actor

Connor Allen
Connor Allen

I really wish they'd de-emphasize his combat skills and go back to writing him as a master detective/ strategist.
Amen. I love it when Batman is actually "the worlds greatest detective" and not just some guy really good at fighting. I like it when he and Superman are together, and for all Superman's super-senses and quicker thinking he misses a little detail or connection that Batman makes.

I remember a comic where Batman took Metropolis for a day and Superman took Gotham. They had a really really shitty reason for why Superman can't operate in Gotham, because "it's just a different city". Well why not say they have different types of crime? Batman can't handle the sheer physical demands of the Metropolis Super-villains, but maybe have it that Superman couldn't figure out one of the most basic Riddler schemes and tries to compensate using super-speed, but he still just can't figure out how to solve a given case. Make them both have their strengths, as it stands Batman is just a worse Superman since Superman is smarter and more observant (at least writers write him that way).

Thomas Russell
Thomas Russell

Movies also aren't trying to sell product monthly for as long as they can. Batman has only had 10 films since 1966, including the lego one. Movie audiences are also conditioned to the villain dying, it's expected. We almost demand it in any action orientated movie. There is also a lot of money on the line to be doing dumb things. The level of talent working on a modern superhero movie is probably in most instances, not all, better than your best comic book hack.

That leads me to superhero comics, their writers and their audience. Superhero comics are by and large written by hacks that can't break into tv, movies or the big time novels. Who was the last writer that truly had a passion just for comics as a storytelling medium? These hacks also have zero respect for the audience. The superhero comics audience as whole is the biggest glutton for punishment of any fandom I know of. They continue to buy garbage event after garbage event. The majority of the audience makes no demand for quality. The superhero comics audience might somehow be dumber as a whole than the general movie going audience. If you still go to the comic shop take a look at the person getting their giant pull list, chances are he looks like the biggest retard you'll come across that day.

Alexander Hughes
Alexander Hughes

Wanting to see Batman being an actual detective
Some here. Making him a thug with bunch of gadgets and plan for every possible situation is just lazy. When was the last time when Batman had to actually solve a case or defeat criminal without relying on his fists?

Who was the last writer that truly had a passion just for comics as a storytelling medium?
In recent years? Probably Joe Hill, Max Landis, and Gerard Way. All of them were or are successful in other fields before choosing to write comics and don't rely on them to earn a living. They might not always be the best, but they obviously write comics because they enjoy them.

The superhero comics audience as whole is the biggest glutton for punishment of any fandom I know of. They continue to buy garbage event after garbage event. The majority of the audience makes no demand for quality. The superhero comics audience might somehow be dumber as a whole than the general movie going audience.
That's because anyone with standards either moved on to manga, European comics, or abandoned medium altogether.
It's not limited to capes either - most popular indie books tend to be on the shit side too. You have people sucking Saga's dick as the best comic ever, even though it's subpar compared to Vaughan's and Staples' past work and many other books currently out.
Then you also have everyone hyping up total crap like Nowhere Men and Rat Queens to high heavens, when actual good books like Resident Alien and Witch Doctor go unnoticed. It's a crime that Moebious and VanHamme are unknown in American comic book community, but hacks like Bendis are considered good and have legions of fans. Luckily things seem to be very slowly changing on that front.

Lincoln Diaz
Lincoln Diaz

Can capeshit as it is even work? I mean, they used to be comics for children that are now marketed as comics for adults that somehow manage to be dumber than their silly old antics. All we have now are overcomplicated universes with multiverses within multiverses and a thousand parallel timelines where every comic makes back references to a thousand other comics that may already be fucking discontinued, and superheroes that rely on being overpowered as shit and the level of characterization reduces to quips and meaningless titles like "18 PhD before their 14th birthday because THEY ARE THAT SMARTZ LOL", where the settings are simply generic vaguely sci-fi urban fantasy where fucking everything can happen because after all these years of raping the setting it's become a bland shitty generic themeless blob with ill defined mechanics. Fuck, I am not even sure Mahvel's business model can even work, what with the "tumblr endless scrolling" equivalent of storytelling.

I have no doubt superheroes can work, but to me they dug a hole so deep I don't think the big two can produce quality superheroes in their main universes. They need to scrap their frameworks and start over.

Chase Roberts
Chase Roberts

It's about time for things to crash, I think. In a perfect world, things would crash for both of the Big Two, the Big Two would get a little smaller, and then they'd take a hard look at themselves, fire the worthless talent, and streamline things down. By that I mean look at the fundamentals of each hero, keep those, and focus on making the heroes and their worlds a little smaller. Batman shouldn't be omnicompetent, for example. He should be brought down a bit to be more believable. Along with that goes ditching a lot of old continuity, but it'd be healthier in the long run.

But stuff like that won't happen because they'll keep making the same mistakes, scrapping it and trying to trim the fat and making those mistakes all over again, in the process making everything all the more confusing.

Say what you will about My Hero Academia, but sometimes it's nicer to read/watch something about superheroes that doesn't have decades of baggage and shitty writing fucking it in the ass.

Robert Richardson
Robert Richardson

Agree, and to add tho you notice even movie fags can't stand some major change in plot or character. Where comic books fags see whore and still buy the comics, the new fantastic 4 movie with wewuztorchndshiit bombed so hard that marvel is obligated to avoid any game to have the fantastic four even old ones

Elijah Rodriguez
Elijah Rodriguez

Here's the thing: none of this shit happens in stories that have a beginning and an end.

David Ward
David Ward

IRL unfortunately, I'll see if my GM keeps notes I can turn into a story for you and link the /tg/ post here.

Carter James
Carter James

The site is broke as fuck, it would be nice if you do that user.

Dominic Clark
Dominic Clark

Hey, give Frank some credit, he never starts something where innocents will get killed. The guy's family were killed in a crossfire, for Pete's sake. He's not retarded, like the TV version of Vigilante.

James Parker
James Parker

That's primarily with the writers bending things around to keep Frank sympathetic, and really, all that does is kind of cheapen what makes him interesting.

Given even a vaguely realistic take on things, Frank would be endangering civilians in almost every scenario, try as he might, somebody innocent is going to catch a bullet eventually.

Juan Morales
Juan Morales

Hi Joss

Brayden White
Brayden White

This is what DCucks actually believe

Batman should have killed some nameless enemies by now with all the brutality he dispences. And Joker should have been shot by the police or shanked or poisoned or.

Isaac Collins
Isaac Collins

Frank would be endangering civilians in almost every scenario, try as he might, somebody innocent is going to catch a bullet eventually.
He once drugged a slaver ring through their soup. One innocent chick died because she passed out face down in soup. It didn't upset him that much.

Landon Morris
Landon Morris

Joker was shanked. It was his second appearance

Ethan Lewis
Ethan Lewis

To put it in context.

Dylan Garcia
Dylan Garcia

Again, the point that "The Punisher" should be killing civilians applies to other superheroes. The X-Men in particular have gotten in firefights within populated areas.

The difference in this area that seperates Frank Castle from Batman or Spiderman is that he's following the implications of vigilantism to its full conclusion by killing the enemy.

Alexander Perez
Alexander Perez

one of the things I like about the X-men is they're not killing people.
meanwhile in reality…

Christopher Butler
Christopher Butler

I'm not saying he could be or should be, I'm just saying you can't actually give The Punisher credit as anything other than an antihero, and I think it's kind of retarded to portray his tactics as flawless because the writers often bend logic to make him more heroic than he should be portrayed.

Whedon's a cuck, killing Frank isn't the answer. Frank works best when his morals are being played against another, more moderate vigilante's. It's not bad to have him kill bad guys, it's just boring and disingenuous to play his tactics as flawless heroism. Punisher tends to get the Batgod syndrome, thought to a somewhat lesser extent.

That's typically done under a completely different context. Big superhero battles with lots of collateral damage more often comes because the heroes can't just up and move that alien invasion to the nearest desert.

Joshua Clark
Joshua Clark

Colossus, Cyclops, Storm, Scarlett Witch, and Deadpool killed people too. As did Gambit, Rogue, Emma Frost, Beast, Cable… X-Men are probably the the good guys with most blood on their hands. Joss Wheadon is a Bendis-level hack.

Austin Long
Austin Long

That's typically done under a completely different context. Big superhero battles with lots of collateral damage more often comes because the heroes can't just up and move that alien invasion to the nearest desert.

And the Punisher is established as making a serious effot to keep collateral damage as low as it can be. It's not like the X-Men are any less of a threat to societ considering all the terrorists and other villains among them.

Gabriel Cruz
Gabriel Cruz

I liked when Riddler reformed and became a private eye.

I'm starting to get the feeling that Kingdom come was only good because of the art by Alex Ross.

Brayden Cox
Brayden Cox

Given even a vaguely realistic take on things, Frank would be endangering civilians in almost every scenario
That's what makes him fun and awesome. He's that much of a badass, that he can plan an attack without endangering innocents. And if you're going to complain that Frank not injuring civilians is unrealistic, there isn't a single hero with a no kill rule that realistically could avoid killing someone if they were operating for longer than a month. Batman would eventually kill someone entirely on accident with the glass falling from the skylight he just broke, or the person he just drop kicked falling in the wrong way.
it's just boring and disingenuous to play his tactics as flawless heroism.
I'm pretty sure every story arc of The Punisher ever starts with the speech about he's not a hero, and how he isn't someone to look up to.

Joshua Nguyen
Joshua Nguyen

I too can appreciate good edge. As well as fluff, or whatever the proper antonym would be.
If the term "edge" is supposed to refer to something that is specifically bad in it's execution of grim and violent themes, I would say that this is not entirely clear from the popular use of the word.

Caleb Brown
Caleb Brown

I really should make a comic of this.

Alexander Peterson
Alexander Peterson

This thread shows there isn't a case for No-Kill superheroes to be the rule when supervillains are shameless mass murderers.

Lucas Ward
Lucas Ward

It still makes sense if you have a mass murderer. It makes less sense when they're ALL mass murderers.

Isaac Moore
Isaac Moore

They're not just mass murderers, they're repeat mass murders

Ethan Allen
Ethan Allen

Amazed nobody has mentioned the Superman story arc "Hunter-Prey" ITT yet.
doomsday goes to apokalips
beats the absolute fucking shit out of Darkseid
Darkseid is mortally wounded and on deaths door
Superman arrives "nobody is going to be dying on my watch!!"
he drops everything he's doing to get Darkseid medical attention and uses a motherbox or something to heal all of Darkseid's wounds
When you main superhero is going out of his way to save your universes cosmic satan, you've taken the "no kill" bullshit to it's most absolutely absurd conclusion.

Justin Nelson
Justin Nelson

This thread shows
Nice to know you're from Reddit.

Colton Ortiz
Colton Ortiz

the triggered DCuck

Jaxson Garcia
Jaxson Garcia

Wonder woman should probably kill

Kevin King
Kevin King

Nova kills all the time actually.

James Roberts
James Roberts

Even the stupid kid?

Adrian Phillips
Adrian Phillips

Superman I get. If he starts killing people, he'd end up like a god deciding who lives and dies and he just doesn't want that burden. Further he has the ability to save people he's incapacitating.

Brother, if Superman killed, it'd be horrifying.

Kevin Gutierrez
Kevin Gutierrez

I don't know who that is, I stopped following the cosmic Marvel stuff after the "Thanos Imperative" arc as it seemed like a naturally ending point to the long ass storyline that started in Annihilation. I'm sure as shit not interested in anything introduced during the Bendis era of cosmic Marvel.

Joshua Hill
Joshua Hill

So if Reddit is less pussy than you guys, yes, then I should maybe visit it one day.

Jayden Bailey
Jayden Bailey

Just make sure to not come back here and we're good.

Grayson Walker
Grayson Walker

Thread reminder that Western civilizations heroes have long been killing the enemy even when just looking at pulp stories that superhero comics are based from. Even early DC superheroes killed before the comics code.

By defending No Kill you are against what is actually the rule in Western civilization's stories.

Eli Brown
Eli Brown

The belief in reform is rebellion

Cool.

Levi Bennett
Levi Bennett

But you see, Western civilizations heroes have long been redeeming the enemies even when just looking at pulp stories that superhero comics are based from. Even early DC superheroes refrained from killing before the comics code.
By attacking No Kill you are against what is actually the rule in Western civilization's stories.

Julian Moore
Julian Moore

But you see, Western civilizations heroes have long been redeeming the enemies even when just looking at pulp stories that superhero comics are based from.

Doc Savage killed or at least allowed the deaths of his enemy. So did Zorro. Also, Tarzan.

Even early DC superheroes refrained from killing before the comics code.

lol, even Robin used lethal force.

Joseph Parker
Joseph Parker

How come she has a second gauntlet covering her right hand?

Lincoln Mitchell
Lincoln Mitchell

Yes Goym follow the killer heroes, its normal to be a brutalized, don't strive for something more. Cavemen hit each other with clubs! Murder ravage, savage!

I see we know where (((you))) stand annon, as well as your puny frame of reference. Go fuck a piggie bank or something.

Luke King
Luke King

Yeah because it wasn't jews who push for the death penalty to be gotten rid of and us to have endless compassion for unrepentant criminals.

Noah Taylor
Noah Taylor

Batman killing the Joker
I won't even dwell on it because the whole setting is too flawed even for a comic book. If the Joker is a mass murderer with body count of thousands, or Gotham a hellhole to the point of allowing a guy like Joker to exist… the state and federal government would had stepped in instead of allowing the municipal government to deal with the situation. Period
Joker wouldn't be whisked for Arkham a dozen times. He would be facing charges at all levels, he would be locked in a Guantanamo like prison for hell knows for how long, at minimum.
Batman? Seriously, for a filthy rich billionaire he is the worst hero ever. Gotham is a shithole? He could simply became mayor or whatever, buy everyone and their mothers and transform is pet city into a model. What's is bribe and political control for a guy who indulges into vigilantism and break a lot of laws to indulge in his hero fantasy?

Cameron Williams
Cameron Williams

Yes Goym use the more expensive death penalty, tax you all to death whilst the corporations just get breaks

Go back to /leftypol/ you kike.

Christopher Ward
Christopher Ward

Fuck you're really bad at pretending to be /pol/ mate. Stop embarrassing yourself

As said earlier in the thread, Batman is actually a great hero. It's just that the people of the DC universe are complete fuckwits.
Whenever Batman actually does kill the Joker or kills any villain for that matter in what-ifs or elseworlds titles, the people and the government scream for his head. Whenever he puts money towards bettering his city, the people don't want it, or villains destroy it. Batman is being the hero Gotham needs: He forces them to either do nothing and die, or do something and live. It's not his fault they always choose to do nothing.

Julian Mitchell
Julian Mitchell

In his second, Batman tried to save him, but couldn't hold on to him due to his bodily integrity deteriorating, so Clayface fell down a cliff and into the sea, where he dissolved. Not much he could do there.
Batman smashed all his lab equipment and prevented him from saving himself. The Justice League blew him up in his final (!) appearance, but we can't put that on Batman.

Supposedly some of the guys working on the show sperged out about Superman killing parademons. I wonder what they thought about him straight up murdering Darkseid in "Twilight".

he drops everything he's doing to get Darkseid medical attention and uses a motherbox or something to heal all of Darkseid's wounds
lllllooooooolllllll, shouldn't have stopped until he was a greasy smear on his fist.

Daniel Ortiz
Daniel Ortiz

Hey Trudeau. Have you won yet by not killing your enemies?

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