Thoughts on sectarianism and left unity?

You're saying this as if the "revolutionary left" is supposed to command respect.

lol you dummy

Not so much respect as in recognising reformism isn't going to get us anywhere

From a tactical point of view, tankies are counter-productive.

From a popular point of view, tankies are counter-productive.

From a theoretical point of view, pic related is the sort of "Marxist" "analysis" tankies make.

Why wouldn't we want to keep these people away?

There is no unity without ideological purity, and there is no ideological purity with revisionism. Read some Lenin

Revolution is the way to go, today's revolutionaries aren't.

I really dislike most other anarchists, so can we keep left unity so I can hang out with the people who actually read stuff.

Music to my ears!

What the fuck is left of the left, then?

Right, because there's nothing porkies fear more than tankies and anarchists!

leftcoms

Define tankie

Well what I mean is, if you exclude M-Ls, Trots, and anarchists, who's left? (pun definitely not intended)

Both of them?

No, but porky probably loves knowing that all the people that hate him are too busy hating each other to do anything about it.

C'mon now, there's at least four of us lurking around here and we all disagree with each other :')

I think if you exclude these people, you still have most of the Left-leaning and radical elements of society intact. It's important to remind ourselves that most leftists and socialists don't really describe themselves as inheritors of a particular programme like Leninists, Trots, Stalinists, anarcho-somethings do. We're talking here about excluding a minority that not only keeps the majority away, it also keeps them afraid of taking steps towards radical conclusions because they start thinking of the revolutionary tradition as lazy and petty, because that's what most of its vocal representatives today are.

Remove the anarkiddies and all their 56+ types of special snowflake anarchism and we'll be good.

This, fucking Anarchism shoudl left leftism once and for all and stop bothering waiting for the revolution and reforming capitalism.

And do what exactly?

I'd suggest Vanguard Party. And then - Revolution.

Though, I don't really get why we should remove Anarchists for this.

Just take out all the meme anarchists except AnComs and Mutualists

Insurrection for the pleasure of resistance for the sake of resistance against the overwhelming aroudn of power structures restricting you on a daily basis on fullfilling your pashions and desires. There is no future, there is only the current and the current is overwhelmed by powerstructures so the only thing left doing is destroyign whats not and see if we will or will not destroy it.

Do you know how one says 'never' in camp slang? 'Morgen fruh', tomorrow morning. Primo Levi

I don't have any, I constantly read so I don't really have time to think.

You're doing it wrong

What meme anarchists? You know who the anarchists are. It's a fucking shame it's been so bastardized.

If you aren't a leftist, you aren't an anarchist to begin with.

I really doubt that would work.

Good luck getting betrayed by your leftist allies day by fucking day, jesus fucking christ anarcho-leftists are the biggest cancer in anarchism. You want to liberate the ''working class of capitalism but Liberate the individual ? Fuck that! le society is the most important thing xD.

Worked before.

Besides, now that we don't have USSR to put blame on ("it's all those Russians wanting to subjugate us!") it will be somewhat easier to recruit people.

Yeah, people betray each other all the time. It still doesn't mean anarchists aren't leftists.

"anarcho-leftist"
Okay, nice subtle insult. Just a reminder that "post-left anarchy" is a special as it gets and is really only active in the U.S. (because again, the US likes to be special" and they're still leftists. Anyways, continue on using bullshit rhetoric like "left anarchist" and giving fire to the right-wing by implying you could be an anarchist and not a leftist. E,g , "anarchist capitalist!"

Under extremely special circumstances in a place wrecked by war. You really think the liberal democracies haven't learned anything? How the hell is that going to work in the US

Meanwhile the the CCF and the FIA are active in Italy and Greece and other informal organisations in south america against techo-industrial institutions. The theory is in America and the practise is in south europe and america.

Fuck off, the masses will never rise and revolution wont come while pure idealogy still rules everyday life with rampant domestication.

They are allready doing it you retard, you dont need any post-left to give them a justification as they were allready doing it before post was existant.

By a fraction of a very small party nobody cared or knew about, when Socialism was considered impossible, when industrialization was believed to be a fantasy.

They did not. That much I can assure you of.

The same way it did everywhere.

You're still a leftist.

And stop calling us "left anarchist". It's fucking stupid.

We would have complete harmonious unity if it wasn't for the retard Stalin apologists on this board. It's the tankies, if we ban them, everything would be fantastic.

Right with state capitalism and red fascism. Every other Marxist state lasted weeks if not days. Face it, nobody liked the USSR, stop pretending like we should ever take you seriously.

And who are "we"?

People who don't like state capitalism, now fuck off.

Got it.

one thing that I like about leftypol is a constant dogfighting beetween everyone

all day every day

Constant infighting between far left ideologies is far from being specific to Holla Forums. My father was quite active in lefists circle in the 70's, and feud between factions sometimes went as far as physical violence.

>'Dont give a fuck about the ''working class'
Purge me anarcho-dont call it a statism.

anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/few-comments-on-post-left-anarchy

Have you even read it yourself or do i have to also dump a random link and be like this is the truth but i wont give an explination cause i actuallt havent read it but am just meming it like stirner memes haha! :^)

the trot-stalin split is a fucking joke, no leftist in 2016 should be able to say with a straight face that stalin didn't betray the revolution. I don't care if you agree with trotsky's other positions or not, but stalin did in fact make a lot of stupid moves, enacted a cult of personality, purged many of his political opponents, removed power from the soviets etc.

Either way it doesn't really matter. Trots and tankies are fundamentally MLs, so this split shouldn't even exist.

As for the rest of the left, while i applaud illegalist anarchists that take arms against the system, their struggle is ultimately symbolic and pointless and their ideology is not rooted in reality. We all aim for a classless stateless society, but that cannot happen in the aftermath of capitalism's collapse, and cannot happen as long as people have national identities/religion/language barriers etc to separate them.

Won't even comment on socdems etc since they're essentially capitalists with a leftist mask

Yep, I've read it. It's easy and short.

tbh I totally disagree with you.
Why for god's sake would I ever want to cooperate with tankies and moists? Most leftcoms don't consider them revolutionaries.

I read half of it and check some things and came acros this comment wich kidna triggers me.

I don't feel I really need to reply to this as this comment exposes its own weaknesses and the pointlessness of post-left anarchism.
Why does the writer flat out dismiss the importance of Individualism?

If you want to revile in your individualism, liberalism must be challenged. Otherwise, all you doing is celebrating bourgeois freedoms

Really? user, do you know that guy who is memed constantly? Youknow that guy who made a philosophy wich post left anarchy basis itself upon?

Do you know Tucker? Do you know what happend at him when a guy called John Henry Mackay introduced him to a someone?

Yeah I know them. I know what you're referring to.

The only old anarchist positions that post left keeps up are from the Individualist school of anarchism wich was mostly neglected and seen as petite bourgeoisie by its social anarchist counterpart for its non participation with mass movements. I dont consider Post-left to be vague, but this stuff is writting in 2009 and post left anarchy has grown nicly and has now actuall idealogies like anarcho-nihilism and insurrectionary anarchism.

Post leftists mostly mean the collectivist ideaogies and the idea of being a counter part against the right by anarchist/communist unity. post leftists oppose cooperation with communists and collectivists and leftism has mostly been dominated by collecitivism and Marxism.

post left anarchy is opposed to anarchism as Anarchism in its collectivist organisation doesnt apply anarchy actually to its current self while its supposed to work towards anarchy. Anarchist organisation reproduces power structures by creating democracy, syndicates where the individual is reduced to a mere unit where he isnt allowed to resist capitalism in his own way as it can damage the organisation its reputation.

Post Leftists go a bit more extreme with anti-economy and anti work and specially anti society. (Wich is the fundemental element for collectivists)

No its for the dissolution of experiencing the socialism in the time period of the cold war. The majority of the post left theorists were part of a situationist organisation back in those days. The blog poster is pretty ignorant on his history of post left thought.

This is straight up anti-intellectualism.

Maybe because you dont have to be straight up socialist wich a collective economic system where workers (Your social role) to be an anarchist. Has this blogger even read anti-civ literature!? Post leftists arnt the biggest fan's of socialism for its reducing the individual to a social role within society.

Or the blogger is just ignorant as fuck in actually researching post left anarchists and just jumping on one theorist. (Bob Black, who isnt even a good one compared to Feral Faun or Aragorn)

Uhm hmm, presentation instead of content. You gotta look sacry and radical! Thats important! We dont actually oppose the technoindustrial complexes :^)

This is straight up anti-intellectualism. (Again!!!)

This is the basis for Insurrectionary/nihilist anarchist organsiation as done by the Conspiracy of Cells of fire. They call it Informal Organisation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_dictatorship
(If the blogger actually did his research he would have known this.)

Worker reductionism, reducing the individual to embrace his status within the economy. To embrace his position to the marxist defintion of what you are in the relations of production.
What if you are not a worker but a lumpen proletariat or an homeless and jobles person? You dont participate in wage slavery, you have none! You are not a worker because you dont fall in the social relationship wich defines you when you are actually part of the working class. The problem post left anarchists have with anarcho-leftists is ignoring what goes beyond marxist classification's, marx also flat out dimmished the importance of lumpen proles as they didnt experience their suplus labour being extracted.

Ill just post this before i make to big of a posts.

In the workplace, but that about work!? What about the inherent missery of work itself where we are forced by capitalism or society (God forbid if you didnt work in socialism!) to slave away your life for the sake of productivty to be used for others. Socialists fetihize work while post leftists question the whole concept of work to individual autonomy. I prever to do stuff wich i enjoy also in preforming and not doing stuff for the sake of the product wich will be used by society. But anti-work position is more an criticism of work of now instead of socialism.

We, Workers. Us who are united not by choosing eachother but who the system defines us as! Embrace your oppresion under society! Oh no someone is racist against you and call you a nigger, what do you do!? offcourse embrace your fucking assigned fucking social status as a black person instead of being an Individual. This is why we cant have nice things.

I'll go quickly quote a part of a book around this subject of beign reduced to an Indetity under the systems of oppression. (And yes Economic clas is an Indentity Muke)

Another central aspect of the camps that devastated potential for resistance was the Nazi strategy of cultivating social alienation, intended "to reduce all inmates to monads." [12] By creating conditions that demanded brute self-interest, where groups and individuals were pitted against each other for scraps of muh privilege, where the pain of isolation was preferable to the weight of empathy, the Nazis were able to preclude the capacity for solidarity, and thus the capacity for much resistance. One of the primary tools in this endeavor was a deeply divisive social structure that pitted inmates against each other. Upon entry into the camps, inmates were put into an identity category demarcated by a colored triangle ("winkel"), that would henceforth impact every moment of their existence. Criminal prisoners (mainly Germans) wore green winkels, political prisoners (e.g. communists, anarchists, etc.) wore red, Jehovah's Witnesses wore violet, male homosexuals wore pink, "anti-socials" (e.g. Romas, mentally ill, lesbians, etc.) wore black, and Jews wore the dreaded yellow star.[13] These triangles were sometimes elaborated by marked letters indicating a person's country of origin, which also had deep impli-cations for how one would be treated in the camp. The arbitrary organization of these identity categories into a violently enforced hierarchy defined social life in the Lagers, and served to undermine solidarity between inmates. Hannah Arendt observed that in the camps, "the gruesome and grotesque part of it was that the inmates identified themselves with these categories, as though they represented a last authentic remnant of their juridical person."[14] Because these identity categories came to be so internalized and cherished by the inmates, connections between inmates were inherently governed by Nazi strategy.

The differential treatment of these artificial groupings created deep fissures between prisoners. "Greens" were often tasked with running the camps as Senior Inmates (responsible for the operation of a particular section of the camp) and Capos ( heads of labour crews).[15] Because an ordinary prisoner was "completely at the mercy of his Capo and senior block inmate", the character traits of these functionaries of-ten determined one's chances for both survival and resistance [16] Beneath these in the hierarchy were other ''prominent" positions that offered opportunities for non-lethal labor, extra food rations, or other muh privileges. Competition for prominent positions was fierce (literally life or death), and such assignments could only be kept by appeasing the ss officers who appointed them. Those who attained prominent positions held them tenaciously, which under the gaze of Nazi officers tended to evoke a certain level of sadism. Overall, the internal hierarchy of the camp fostered an atmosphere of brutal mistrust, competition, and resentment. New-comers were usually met with outright hostility by fellow inmates, alongside the physical and verbal abuse of the guards.[17] Primo Levi describes how debilitating his first encounter with this atmosphere of prisoner hostility was: "This brusque revelation, which became manifest from the very first hours of imprisonment… was so harsh as to cause the immediate collapse of one's capacity to resist.[18]

While some echelons of this social hierarchy had hopes of survival and/or upward mobility, others had none. Across the entire system of camps it was universally true that Jews held the lowest rung. For them there were generally no prominent positions available or muh privileges to be earned; for them there was only death and the hostility and resentment of those around them for the space they occupied, the food they consumed, and the hopelessness they represented.[19] As Joseph Garlinski describes the Jews situation in Auschwitz, their horrid and short lives within the camps combined with their multilingual, multinational makeup as a group, "limited any possibility of clan-destine work among [them] and decreased the chances of their forming a strong underground group in the camp.[20] Russians generally occupied the second lowest rung of the camp, and in situations where they weren't immediately killed, were rarely able to gain prominent positions or form lasting networks. [21] Men marked with a pink triangle were often the subject of sexual violence, and thus occupied their own unique and vicious echelon of the camp hierarchy—to even speak with a "pink" was a risky affair, which meant they faced an added layer of isolation.[22] Thus we can begin to see that enormous disparity existed in the muh privilege of different inmates, and had substantial implications for the capacity and willingness of different prisoners to resist.

Blessed is the Flame, an introduction to concetration camp resistance and anarcho-nihilism.
by Serafinski

...

Nice one le blogger man.

Maybe you knew if you did your research, jesus fucking christ is this guy a smug son of a bitch who wants everything put a platter for him without any will to actually research whatte fuck he critizes. (Some post leftists do this too tho, mister police informant as example)

Outdated in reference to Frankfurt school theories and the Situationalist International, youknow that stuff what heavily inspired post left anarchy! (The SI did a brilliant criticism on Anarchism and the Post Left Took that on and learned from it.)

Dont disagree here.

Dont Disagree.

And the post left anarchists point out the problems of big organisations (Even in Federal forms) with corruption and manipulation in the democratic/censual voting process and the beurocracy being created by the most dedicated members and restrictions being imposed on the members by the organisation itself wich is in constradition with what anarchy stands for.
If blogger did his research he could have discoverd that post left anarchists arnt big fans of formal organisation, especially of a syndicate federation.

HOW FUCKING RETARDED IS THIS PERSON, HISTORIC FUCKING MATERIALISM IS ONE OF THE DEFINING CONCEPTS IN MARXIST PHILOPSHY!!!
The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.! Does this guy even fucking know Marxism?

He indeed doesnt fucking know cause post left anarchists are for owness and not for freedom wich means being rid off mostly done by an external authority. Its an stirner therm because suprise suprise stirner is a major influence on post left anarchy! Again Blogger shows that he hasnt researched jack fucking shit!

Half of this fucking essay is, I DONT KNOW..I DONT KNOW… I DONT KNOW… Come the fuck on.

What is Material interest? This guy doesnt know shit about Marxism so i gues he also doesnt know what Material fucking interest is!

And now he suddenly knows the fucking awnser! Why the fuck did he even fucking write the first fucking part.

Hey, that remind me of people… hmmm some french drunks! Ah the Situationist international!

Yes, those willing! And there are some who dont want to! Who dont want to work! And those who dont want to work prever to be left the fuck alone. post left anarchist arnt really opposed to socialism but are heavily against mandatory work! If i MUST work in socialism then i will resist, if i am left alone cause i dont to work but also dont gain the stuff of society then i choose so! Post left anarchy cares about the individual his authonomy in socialism as opposesed to the collectivism of anarcho-leftists who could forget the individual wich creates dangerouse situations!

Whatever you say mister expert on contemporary anarchism.

Further proof that the blogger knows nothing about post left anarchy for ignoring Anti society/Anti civilisation wich is 70% of the stuff writting in post left theory. jesus fucking christ.
Like come the fuck on this is just straight up lazy.

No its anti-civ, post left anarchy is anti-civ!

And post left anarchy raised that new powerstructures will be created in socialism and ecocide with the continueation of the techno-industrial society. (Green Anarchism)

post left anarchy has a criticism against Scientism not science itself, maybe primitivists do or hakim bay but the majority dont but are more against creating a new idealogy/religion/ism around a thing.

Dont disagree completly because technology can be used but i dont support its fetishization or transhumanism. And post left anarchy critizes sutch thing.

I think this is kidna funny youknow, cause post left anarchy does use old ideas. But all these idea are NOWHERE TO BE SEEN IN THIS FUCKING ESSAY!? Where the fuck are the illigalist!? Where are the fucking Individualists!? Where the fuck are the early insurrectionary anarchists or the nihilist movement!? There isnt even a fucking MENTION of the free love or free think movement!

This is the most pure idealogy i have ever seen.

My gott, traight up anti-intellectualism. (Again…)

The rest is an discussion with Bob Black on historical stuff wich i dont know off so i cant have an opinion on it. Even so its Bob Black!

I've read the whole thing and i am not impressed at all with this blog post. It only uses like 3 sources to judge a whole movement. It shows a huge lack of intellectual honesty and didnt even mention Individualist Anarchism wich post left anarchy comes from!

It fucking compares it with anarcho-collectivism/anarcho-syndaclism and uses Bakunin and Kroptokin and some bastardisation of marxism with the compelte neglect of any anarcho individualists.

let me just be verry simple, post left anarchy wants to be away from leftism as leftism has failed the Individual and has reduced the individual constantly to indentiy and class and tried constantl to make the individual a mere unit to be used for organisation to bring upon an idea. We are sick and tired of you people and want to get the fuck away from leftism where we always must fucking cooperate with communist who will stab us in the back constantly and use us and disregard us. I am sick and tired of being reduced and used and want to fucking own myself. And i am unable to cause capitalism, the state, society AND LEFTISM restricts me of doing so! So thats why i resist, thats why i want a fucking insurrection, may it be in hopelessness as the anarcho-nihilist or to fullfill my pashions and desires as the insurecctionary school.

An Anarchist can be my comrade but please dont get in my way or i stab you with my edge.

Okay. So what's your fucking plan hotshot? What are you "individualists" going to actually do? Give me some real plan.

Insurrection, have you even read what i wrote down?

>=='And i am unable to cause capitalism, the state, society AND LEFTISM restricts me of doing so! So thats why i resist, thats why i want a fucking insurrection, may it be in hopelessness as the anarcho-nihilist or to fullfill my pashions and desires as the insurecctionary school. '==

Necessity > desire

I see the importance of being a leftcom is being the gadfly that pushes everyone else leftward. I don't plan on compromising who I am by working with M-Ls, but I do know that a lot of things I want won't be implemented (at least right away). Cooperate, but never stop critiquing.

pls, just don't

why unite with groups whose objectives are nearly close to ours.

Care to prove this statement?

Because all I see is porky flinging shit and hoping that some will stick and prove that Socialism is impossible.

Except modern Trotskyism is no longer Marxist. Trotsky would icepick most of modern Trots himself.

So - yeah. It does matter. Unless we are talking actual orthodox Trots, difference is bigger than between ML and Anarchists (those that who hadn't gone AnCap, at least).

Most ML don't consider LeftCom revolutionaries either.

This, Social Democracy should have left its relation with leftism since 1927.

no.

Nobody's fucking talking about letting them in, muke.