People doing bad things is due to capitalism because under the reign of the...

Camden Bennett
Camden Bennett

people doing bad things is due to capitalism because under the reign of the hypothetical idyll of socialism they wouldn't

How can you believe in such a mockery of European thought and scorn others as being idealists?

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Ethan Thomas
Ethan Thomas

It could be because capitalism has been the main cause of almost all major calamities of the last few hundred years?
But ehh thats just an opinion

Brayden Reyes
Brayden Reyes

Only children who haven’t read theory believe that. And what’s this bullshit about “mocking European thought”.

Jace Rogers
Jace Rogers

the laws of economics lead people to act in ways that benefit everyone
wtf every country on earth should follow these policies, by force if need be
the laws of economics lead people to act in ways that don't benefit everyone
wtf lazy ppl are ruing western civilization

Samuel James
Samuel James

Which capitalism does because those calamities are capitalism, which they are because their presence means the perfection of socialism is not present. This sort of reasoning is like the commonly mocked christian copy-pasta about evil being the lack of god.

A mockery of European thought in the sense of it bringing the systematical territorialization that forms the substrate of European thought to self-satire.

Adam Wright
Adam Wright

implying we defend socialism with a moralist argument instead of an argument that says it is in the rational self-interest of the working class

Logan Ortiz
Logan Ortiz

Socialists don't believe in any of that.

To quote Marx:
Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

The reason we believe certain behaviors and social phenomena will go away under socialism is because human behavior and social norms are shaped by the material conditions and mode of production they live in. If certain behaviors can be tied to capitalism, or class society as a whole, than it can be deduced that those behaviors will fade away under socialism.

Wyatt Edwards
Wyatt Edwards

Where have you seen non M-Ls claim this?

Kevin Thompson
Kevin Thompson

It could be because capitalism has been the main cause of almost all major calamities of the last few hundred years?
But ehh thats just an opinion
How can you rationally prove that your "opinion" isn't merely informed by confimation bias?

Jackson Scott
Jackson Scott

people would continue to do "bad" things, but the removal of profit motive would greatly reduce the """bad""" stuff people because it's the most self-economically sound path.

Parker Hill
Parker Hill

read Bordiga

Jayden Thomas
Jayden Thomas

Materialism, son.

You'll find that giving primacy to economics, rather than the usual culture-reductionist viewpoint results in far fewer leaps in logic.

Hudson Morgan
Hudson Morgan

the rational self-interest of the working class
Which is what? Spreading their genes as much as possible; the only interest that can be deducted from nature?

We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.
I cannot imagine a politics more idealistic than such just-so manichaeism.
The reason we believe certain behaviors and social phenomena will go away under socialism is because human behavior and social norms are shaped by the material conditions and mode of production they live in. If certain behaviors can be tied to capitalism, or class society as a whole, than it can be deduced that those behaviors will fade away under socialism.
The socialism here is a big theoretical negative, which presupposes capitalism as a totality, this is again similar to the christian notion of evil being the absence of god because there would be no evil in the kingdom of god, it fundamentally begs the question.

Carson Evans
Carson Evans

Which is what?
If the picture didn't give it away, it is in the working class to be in control of the means of production, and to abolish the property of the idle class.

Adam Myers
Adam Myers

If certain behaviors can be tied to capitalism, or class society as a whole, than it can be deduced that those behaviors will fade away under socialism.

Where does the field of genetics come into this?

Or is it one of those "genes stop at the neck" kind of things, sure there's potential genetic links to patterns such as violence, substance abuse, etc but it's still MUH MATERIAL CONDITIONS…somehow

Justin Roberts
Justin Roberts

What makes this their rational self-interest; how can you claim that there is such a thing as rational self-interest without this being total social darwinism?

Ian Torres
Ian Torres

That would be communism. Stalin's communism caused the starvation of 120 million. Lenin's communism saw the genocide of 60 million Christians. Mao's communism saw what, 200 million genocided? All 3 of the biggest genocides were due to communism. It makes what Hitler did look like a joke.

Evan Rogers
Evan Rogers

evolutionary determinism
Explain homosexuals and asexual. Explain Isaac Newton and Nikola Tesla, famous geniuses who died virgins by their own choice. Your worldview falls apart at the slightest touch, ironic for someone so keen to compare other ideologies to religion because of superficial similarities.

I cannot imagine a politics more idealistic than such just-so manichaeism.
Marxism isn't Manichaeist in the slightest. It's dialectical and materialist.

The socialism here is a big theoretical negative, which presupposes capitalism as a totality, this is again similar to the christian notion of evil being the absence of god because there would be no evil in the kingdom of god, it fundamentally begs the question.
This is a confusion on your part. No serious Marxist believes all the bad things will go away under socialism, but merely that the social conditions created under capitalism will fade away, and new (better, but not perfect) conditions will arise.

Michael Gray
Michael Gray

this tbh

Isaiah Edwards
Isaiah Edwards

an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself
And you just stated why it will never work. You are trying to defy natural law.

Evan Myers
Evan Myers

What makes this their rational self-interest; how can you claim that there is such a thing as rational self-interest without this being total social darwinism?

What are you talking about? You have to be a moron to not think it's in your rational self interest to join a subversive movement, attempt to overthrow the government, after which you either get sent to prison or fight in a bitter civil war - and assuming you're both victorious (and not purged by a rival faction that holds slightly different interpretation of what Marx meant), you might have a chance at owning the means of production (if you're part of the committee appoint by the Party to oversee the factory you formerly worked at)

Isaiah Murphy
Isaiah Murphy

Genetic determinism is bunk, my Nazi friend.

Joshua Barnes
Joshua Barnes

OP please put your thoughts in a single post, this is not a fast board.

Mason Thompson
Mason Thompson

this tbh (2)

Jace Gonzalez
Jace Gonzalez

natural law
WEW THERE LAD
Show me a law molecule. I'll wait.

Carter Morales
Carter Morales

what is the profit motive

Isaiah Rogers
Isaiah Rogers

evolutionary determinism
If you're going to deduce rational self-interest from nature, that's what you're getting. If not, explain to me how you determine what rational self-interest is.
Marxism isn't Manichaeist in the slightest. It's dialectical and materialist.
A (cargo cult) dialectical materialism manicheanism is manicheanism none the less.
This is a confusion on your part. No serious Marxist believes all the bad things will go away under socialism, but merely that the social conditions created under capitalism will fade away, and new (better, but not perfect) conditions will arise.
Tell me, why is the use of under to describe man and his world so peculiar to marxists?

Austin Jackson
Austin Jackson

Either human behaviour is 100% environmental, or 100% genetic - and since you mentioned genes have even the slightest impact you're a genetic determinist nutjob that obviously believes the potential to learn French is genetic, and since there are non-white Frenchmen GENETIC DETERMINISM BTFO

Dylan Sanchez
Dylan Sanchez

I'll become one with the Big Other, and will therefor own the means production even when materially rotting away in an unnamed grave.

Easton Young
Easton Young

Holla Forums isn't one person, so you may find my opinion is not consistent with other posters'.

Capitalists always act exclusively in their self-interest, which they like to boast about on television. Whether a capitalist decides to fire workers, reduce their pay, increase their hours, use slave labor in the third world, fund death squads in Central and South America, or anything else is for him exclusively a question of whether it is profitable. Morality or anything doesn't factor into his decisions. And why should it? After all, the capitalists argue, they have a right to act in their rational self-interest—a rational organism is strictly concerned with the logical solution to a problem, and while considering the feelings or rights of others is nice, it is an altruistic behavior and therefore illogical. The capitalists argue that if we only rule our society by self-interest, then everything will naturally work out well.

So if there isn't a double standard here, it is just as valid for the working class to adopt this thought process.

Luke Ross
Luke Ross

implying black people can speak french
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Creole

Benjamin Taylor
Benjamin Taylor

Tank posters, everyone.

John Bennett
John Bennett

Almost as if a material analysis is the opposite of idealism. Read a book.

Logan Nguyen
Logan Nguyen

I… kind of loathe Marx over the events of the first, but both marxist analysis and buddhism, oddly enough, make a single claim…

Things arise and/or occur for reasons, it's not random. As long as those reasons are there, those things will continue to happen, whether you try to use force to supppress them, or beg, or whine, or plead, or whatever. If those reasons that cause a thing to arise are not there, these things will not in fact happen, because the situation which produces them is no longer.

Of course, this means materialism is also an argument for anarchopacifism, because you have to actually fix the problem or it will keep happening… but, well… it all arose from something, and your choices for a while now have been capitalism, feudalism, and the underlying causes of roman expansionism.

Noah Sanchez
Noah Sanchez

If you're going to deduce rational self-interest from nature, that's what you're getting. If not, explain to me how you determine what rational self-interest is.
The ability to gather to one' self the means of survival, the ability to aquire one' various desires, and finally the ability to pursue some form of self-actualization.

For the worker, this means throwing off the constraints put on them by the boss and capital.

A (cargo cult) dialectical materialism manicheanism is manicheanism none the less.
Except it isn't and you've yet to provide any argument that it is.

Tell me, why is the use of under to describe man and his world so peculiar to marxists?
It isn't. Most people see large political or socio-economic systems as being "above" individuals or groups residing within it (i.e. - "Under feudalism, leadership was hereditary, but under democracy, leaders are elected.) Youre seeing things that aren't there.

Oliver Lee
Oliver Lee

Watch this:
Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself.

not
Learn how to read.

Zachary Ward
Zachary Ward

Of course, this means materialism is also an argument for anarchopacifism
No, it's not. Have you perhaps tried reading Engels' Anti-Duhring? Read Rafiq.

Nicholas Jenkins
Nicholas Jenkins

2249442
It's mostly environmental. Humans, being a social species who have inhabited and multitude of biomes, have adapted to adjust our behavior to current social and material conditions, rather than following pure instinct.

Brody Brooks
Brody Brooks

2249487
search in /trash/ thread, that's where they usually post.
you might even get some boipussy if you ask nicely.

Ethan Sanders
Ethan Sanders

2249487
Neo Nazi with a 19 inch cock
there's no such thing

unless you provide proof that's it

Hunter Robinson
Hunter Robinson

2249487
Neo nazis
masculine

Grayson Turner
Grayson Turner

Yeah, actually, it is - you have to actually solve the underlying problem, because punching symptoms won't do a damn thing.

Camden James
Camden James

Socialism is the true inheritor of the European Enlightenment.

Caleb Clark
Caleb Clark

prove it

Jacob Bennett
Jacob Bennett

Socialism is the true inheritor of the European Enlightenment.
Well there's your problem!

Logan Brooks
Logan Brooks

We're the only ideology as far as I'm aware of that practically demand that you be versed in Western philosophy and neolibs love to deride us for apparently being stuck in the 19th century.

Benjamin Williams
Benjamin Williams

Materialism, son.

You'll find that giving primacy to economics, rather than the usual culture-reductionist viewpoint results in far fewer leaps in logic.
That doesn't answer the question. KISS principle doesn't avoid confirmation bias.

Ayden Gomez
Ayden Gomez

There's a degree of confirmation bias in everyone, but I became a Marxist because there are few to no "leaps of faith" that I have to swallow.

In any kind of man-made catastrophe, the socio-economic system is going to have played a big role. For the past two and a half centuries, the dominant socio-economic system has been capitalism.

Dylan Reed
Dylan Reed

It's painfuly obvious that you have never read a book in your life. Capitalism is a real concept, read it's definition from a dictionary for starters.

Aaron Price
Aaron Price

In addition, we can look at the previous mode of production, feudalism, and see that, for all its flaws, the economy under that system never just suddenly fucked up for no physical reason, no famines amid bumper crops, so we can deduce that these things must be a peculiarity of the capitalist system.

David Gray
David Gray

In any kind of man-made catastrophe, the socio-economic system is going to have played a big role. For the past two and a half centuries, the dominant socio-economic system has been capitalism.
So according to logic, capitalism played a big role but not the only role.

In addition, we can look at the previous mode of production, feudalism, and see that, for all its flaws, the economy under that system never just suddenly fucked up for no physical reason, no famines amid bumper crops, so we can deduce that these things must be a peculiarity of the capitalist system.
There are other economic systems besides feudalism. And people tend to bend the rules every now and then.

Charles Rodriguez
Charles Rodriguez

Capitalists always act exclusively in their self-interest, which they like to boast about on television.
Begging the question in its assuming of purely striving for profit as self-interest and evidently wrong in its own criteria; If they did, there would be no socialists from among the capitalists.
Whether a capitalist decides to fire workers, reduce their pay, increase their hours, use slave labor in the third world, fund death squads in Central and South America, or anything else is for him exclusively a question of whether it is profitable. Morality or anything doesn't factor into his decisions. And why should it? After all, the capitalists argue, they have a right to act in their rational self-interest—a rational organism is strictly concerned with the logical solution to a problem, and while considering the feelings or rights of others is nice, it is an altruistic behavior and therefore illogical. The capitalists argue that if we only rule our society by self-interest, then everything will naturally work out well.
Please go outside if you actually believe owning property or capital assimilates you into the borg.
So if there isn't a double standard here, it is just as valid for the working class to adopt this thought process.
Having to provide for people who can't work is not in this rational self-interest, will the handicapped therefor be put alongst the wall besides the porkies?

The ability to gather to one' self the means of survival, the ability to aquire one' various desires, and finally the ability to pursue some form of self-actualization.
Socialism is a socialists rational self-interest because a socialist desires socialism. Bullet proof logic.
Except it isn't and you've yet to provide any argument that it is.
It compresses the world into a duality of itself and its counter (a mirror image), much like how libertarians argue that the real political spectrum is libertarianism vs authoritarianism. This compression into duality is figuratively spoken as manicheanism.
It isn't. Most people see large political or socio-economic systems as being "above" individuals or groups residing within it (i.e. - "Under feudalism, leadership was hereditary, but under democracy, leaders are elected.) Youre seeing things that aren't there.
No, most people use in or don't speak of socio-economic systems in such idealist terms.

It's painfuly obvious that you have never read a book in your life.
Do you think people would actually do that, write things in books of which rote repetition leaves people with a lack in understanding?
Capitalism is a real concept, read it's definition from a dictionary for starters.
Lrn2ontology

Jaxon Garcia
Jaxon Garcia

So according to logic, capitalism played a big role but not the only role.
Yep. You got it, boss.

There are other economic systems besides feudalism. And people tend to bend the rules every now and then.
And capitalism is the only one for which you have these big economic catastrophes for which there is no physical cause, famines admits bumper crops, empty residences outnumbering the homeless, etc. This is a peculiarity of capitalism.

James Flores
James Flores

Feudal arrangements added to famines due to restrictions and incentives, like caps on grain and rice prices. From which sources are you getting your information?

Luke Parker
Luke Parker

Socialism is a socialists rational self-interest because a socialist desires socialism. Bullet proof logic.
Except that's not even remotely what I said.

It compresses the world into a duality of itself and its counter (a mirror image), much like how libertarians argue that the real political spectrum is libertarianism vs authoritarianism. This compression into duality is figuratively spoken as manicheanism.
That's dialectics, not manicheanism. Once again, these are only superficially similar.

Nor would I agree that this is any kind of "compression". A framework for analysis isn't "compression".

No, most people use in or don't speak of socio-economic systems in such idealist terms.
Except they do, and we us "in" as well. I don't think you understand what idealism is. Most people are idealist, we aren't.

Noah Sanders
Noah Sanders

Source? Name a famine under feudalism that didn't occur because a poor harvest.

Aaron Murphy
Aaron Murphy

Spreading their genes as much as possible; the only interest that can be deducted from nature?
only interest that can be deducted from nature?
interest
can be deducted from nature

Jordan Sullivan
Jordan Sullivan

https://books.google.nl/books?id=VRSXz25X5P8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:0804748187&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR7KOiwr3XAhVGb1AKHUByBYIQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Look up Dong Wei's criticism of the famine prevention methods of feudal China in particular.

Dylan Gomez
Dylan Gomez

My point exactly.

Evan Jenkins
Evan Jenkins

I wanted an example of a famine that occurred under feudalism during a good harvest. No physical reason for it, purely a fuckup of the economic system. I'm not a fan of feudalism, I don't need convincing that it was shit.

Leo Fisher
Leo Fisher

There is no separation from an economic system and the physical world. The link I gave you explains how feudal restrictions and quota's attributed to famines and how the lifting these helped elevate the situation.

John Morris
John Morris

natural sciences and social sciences use the same logic; they need not be separated
Honestly read Rafiq.

Jacob Martinez
Jacob Martinez

Are you denying that there is such a thing as a bad harvest and a good harvest?

Wyatt Clark
Wyatt Clark

That's not what I said or implied. I've read rafiq, he goes into the category of the over-rational and the over-orthodox, those neurotic obsessives who take an ideology so fully and bluntly that they're an embarrassment to it.

No.

Adrian Morris
Adrian Morris

Then what are you getting at?

Sure, Chinese feudalism may have contributed to bad harvests, but that's irrelevant. My point was that economic crashes with no physical cause was unique to capitalism. Even if Chinese feudalism contributed to bad harvests, that's still a physical cause.

Noah Perez
Noah Perez

What I'm getting at is that capitalism gave more food security over feudalism, even with there being stock market crashes.

Jayden Rodriguez
Jayden Rodriguez

Capitalism also caused famines, like the famines in India under British colonial rule, when food was shipped off to Europe to people who would pay more for it, leading to a shortage where previously there was none.

Jacob Stewart
Jacob Stewart

this also happened in the Soviet Union in 1931-33

Blake Campbell
Blake Campbell

There was a bad harvest.

Michael Scott
Michael Scott

there were no famines under feudalism

Fucking retards giving a bad name to communists

Anthony Adams
Anthony Adams

There were no famines under feudalism that weren't caused by bad harvest. That is, a physical cause for the economic problem.

Nicholas Hernandez
Nicholas Hernandez

Which famines are you referring to? As far as I know the Indian famines were exacerbated by much the same issues as those in the feudal period.

Kuli's deserved it.

Brayden James
Brayden James

that too, but it was because stalin paid the clouds not to rain

Jordan Parker
Jordan Parker

defending socialism based on its appeal to a given part of society rather than its being more republican than liberalism
you're barely any better than the moralists, fuck off

Gavin Ross
Gavin Ross

With bad harvests being related to feudalism and capitalism being an improvement to this

Anthony Rodriguez
Anthony Rodriguez

Not even slightly. Capitalist free-market fundamentalist policy often exacerbated what would have been some pretty hard times into catastrophic events with millions dead both in India and China. Drought events in China during the 18th century where met with massive scale relief efforts that where aided with extremely well planned grain buffer-stocks and most of the relief efforts were given as a dole system until normal agriculture could be reassumed, combined with price control, punishment for price gougers and temporary tax relief for the poor. A few people died sure but nowhere near as during equivalent drought events in 19th century China under British influence like the 1877-79 famine when free-market fundamentalism meant that people starved outside filled granaries, food prices could increase more than ten-fold, food was exported during the famine, tax pressure on the poor was maintained or even increased despite people losing their incomes, and what little relief effort there was was often sub 2000 kcal a day in exchange for 12h/day of hard labour, i.e. slow starvation. People often tried to get arrested because prisoners where the best maintained people in the entire country.

Capitalist laissez-fairé dogma turns what would be hard times into outright disasters. Read "Late Victorian Holocausts" by Mike Davis.

Nathaniel White
Nathaniel White

Things caused by the capitalist mode of production happen
Those things are bad
Blame capitalism and say socialism will solve it
Hurrrrrrr muh european thought checkmate commies

Owen Russell
Owen Russell

mockery of European thought
European thought

This is a good oxymoron. I had a chuckle.

Brandon Foster
Brandon Foster

Read Marx

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