Hello

Elijah Ramirez
Elijah Ramirez

What happens if I choose not to participate in the economy? Do I get gulaged?

Isn't this a problem? How can you regulate human behavior without becoming authoritarian?

All urls found in this thread:
https://bitconnect.co/?ref=cryptopin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
James Price
James Price

Are you some kind of AnPrim?

How can you not participate in the economy?

Hunter Walker
Hunter Walker

like this

Michael Gonzalez
Michael Gonzalez

Homeless still participate in the economy to a very limited extent. That's what the cup is for, collecting money to participate in the economy so he doesn't die.

Tyler Taylor
Tyler Taylor

What happens if I choose not to participate in the economy?

Sebastian Baker
Sebastian Baker

Well, what happens in capitalism if you refuse to work? You starve.

So, in socialism, you refuse to work, you starve.

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat"

Jeremiah Walker
Jeremiah Walker

you get nothing

Liam Williams
Liam Williams

Not participating in the economy would mean you would starve since you wouldn't buy any food.
But that has nothing to do with socialism, it's the same under capitalism.

Adrian Sanchez
Adrian Sanchez

And who gets to determine whether what I do qualifies as work? How did he or she even obtain that position? What if I feel like waving my dick in traffic is entertaining and that I require compensation but my local commissar won't give me my ration? Do I have to get violent and start my own revolution?

Robert Wilson
Robert Wilson

UPHOLD THE MARXIST-NUDIST THOUGHT

Jayden Rivera
Jayden Rivera

Waving your dick in traffic might be entertaining but it is still not socially necessary labour. The idea of a professionalized class of entertainers and artists that is external to the rest is something socialism needs to do away with.

Christopher Cruz
Christopher Cruz

how do you determine what is necessary labor?

Julian Lewis
Julian Lewis

Well it's very simple. Do we need people to wave their dicks about? No, we could do just fine without ever encountering that. Do we need people to harvest food? Yes, otherwise we would starve to death.

If we're going to have a directly democratic society this is an absolute non-problem.

Easton Sanders
Easton Sanders

The idea of a professionalized class of entertainers and artists that is external to the rest is something socialism needs to do away with.
Fully agreed, brother.

Gabriel Torres
Gabriel Torres

That's not for you to determine. I can tell you that a world without music, literature, art, or any other form of entertainment would be absolutely horrible and thus those things are necessary for human existence. I would say internet access is necessary for communication, but some would disagree. I would say schooling is necessary to create functional human beings, but some would disagree. Would my cattle farm be considered unnecessary and therefore undeserving of compensation just because you could feed far more people with an equally laborious grain farm?

We could argue all day without accomplishing anything, which I guess is the heart of socialism.

Cooper Bell
Cooper Bell

how will socialism ever recover

Jose Harris
Jose Harris

this

John Allen
John Allen

Wtf I hate socialism now

Justin Myers
Justin Myers

Please remember that a change in western countries to socialism will be the result of mass automation and not this pointless board of pathetic revolutionaries.

Dominic Garcia
Dominic Garcia

Please remember that socialism will be the result of things said in socialist theory and not this strawman I came up with to make myself feel less of an idiot when the board laughs at me

Ian Green
Ian Green

a world without music, literature, art, or any other form of entertainment would be absolutely horrible
which is why it should be free of the profit motive strangling creativity and free expression
people are going to self-express through work and art more when strictly defined socially necessary labour is minimised and there is a marginal amount of forced labour compared to current capitalism
We could argue all day without accomplishing anything, which I guess is the heart of socialism.
Agreement and compromise are literally impossible, which is why every society needs a Sovereign Autocrat who decides everything for us.

Adrian Lopez
Adrian Lopez

All variation of the entertainment form will be abolished under socialism, except for socrates style dialogues

Zachary Lewis
Zachary Lewis

Hello I'm Jake and I have been with this community for a while.. I recently came under a financial crisis that resulted in me losing my ability to work and now I'm in medical debt… I was wondering if anyone in the community can help me out..? I'm really desperate and well just need some advice/companionship. I do have my parents, they are big help. So in that aspect im greatful, but we are not wealthy by for means.. if you can help/donate in any way that be so appreciated and thank you so much god bless.

bitcoin wallet:
1BDt7mjgu7gQpHcMsXGaPWJDeHtkGt5zi7

ethereum wallet:
0x95c4756213f0F2f37EFE4a1A67E528BACF1AB013

https://bitconnect.co/?ref=cryptopin

Brandon Allen
Brandon Allen

On art, I agree. But here is the thing I was saying earlier, one thing socialism needs to do away with is the idea of a professionalized class of artists and entertainers. One of the goals of socialism is to minimize hours worked to what is only necessary, if we're only working a couple of hours a week anyway pursuing arts is not out of anyone's reach in their spare time. The influence on money on art is a BAD thing and I fully believe if you aren't willing to produce art for free it is not worth making anyway. On internet or school being unncessary, this is totally retarded. Anyone who thinks we could give up internet as a society must not realize that in the 21st century the internet is essential to our technological infrastructure, getting rid of it and going back to the 1980s would be even more work for everyone that continuing on the path we're on. Anyone who thinks we can do without education without society, well, absolutely imploding is simply retarded.

We could argue all day without accomplishing anything, which I guess is the heart of socialism.
Well yes, that's because you're one of those people who comes on Holla Forums to say "oh what about this didn't think of that didja" regardless of how practical or desireable what you're arguing for actually is. You're only arguing for it to try and undermine socialism.

Like seriously, how likely would "Let's ban art, the internet and school" be to pass in a direct democracy. Would you vote for it? Would any significant amount of people?

Eli Hall
Eli Hall

Read Das Kapital, Marx gives some examples about what is this socially necessary labour, and how to determine what is it and what is ot

Thomas Cooper
Thomas Cooper

Thanks for reminding me that Anarcho-Transhumanists literally argue for a Borg collective

Benjamin Martin
Benjamin Martin

True but that's not what I was talking about.

Elijah Cruz
Elijah Cruz

socialism
buy food
work or starve
So socialism isn't about utilizing our productive capacity to provide a basic level of subsistence (food, clothing, housing, etc) to free up our labor to be used in self fulfilling activity? It's just capitalism with red flags?

Jason Williams
Jason Williams

buy food
We have to come up with a fancy new word when you exchange your labor vouchers for means of consumption? Sounds like unnecessary formalism to me.
So socialism isn't about utilizing our productive capacity to provide a basic level
In every socialist country in the world, work hours have been massively reduced. However, you can't just make participation in the labor force voluntary. Nobody would work, society would collapse. You need to provide incentives.

Camden Smith
Camden Smith

In every socialist country in the world
Despite what daddy Stalin told you there has never been a country whose economy has reached socialism.
the economy would collapse if people weren't forced to labor under the threat of starvation
MUH INCENTIVES
tankies are literally capitalists with red flags
WEW

Joseph Ward
Joseph Ward

if we're only working a couple of hours a week anyway pursuing arts is not out of anyone's reach in their spare time.
From my experience, when people have more time on their hands the only thing they do is drink, smoke, fight, and fuck. You seem to think that people would naturally spend their free time working hard, creating new technologies, and producing things to give away for free.

On internet or school being unncessary, this is totally retarded
There ARE people who think this way and you have to share a society with them. The only thing you can do about them as a socialist is dump them in a forced labor camp for reeducation, assuming that your viewpoint has the majority otherwise you yourself will be in a camp.

Like seriously, how likely would "Let's ban art, the internet and school" be to pass in a direct democracy. Would you vote for it? Would any significant amount of people?
My point was not to ban those things, but that those things aren't deemed necessary enough for compensation. No one is going to build power lines for internet if they aren't getting paid for it. However in response to your question, it depends on the context of "art, internet, and school". Is it unreasonable to ban a school that is teaching false information, or is indoctrinating people in a cult like environment? The majority of people would be okay with banning canvases of smeared shit and period blood even though it is artistic expression.

Thomas Ortiz
Thomas Ortiz

Despite what daddy Stalin told you there has never been a country whose economy has reached socialism
muh dogmatist formula
Did the law of value determine production in the USSR? Was there private property? Was there production for profit or market exchange? Sounds pretty socialist to me. Marx didn't even sketch out a socialist society proper before he died, for a good reason, as it is impossible to predict the material conditions and predicaments a socialist revolution would face.
muh incentives means capitalism
Marx himself advocates for incentives as he propagates labor vouchers. It is fucking utopian to think that people would just work when they have no reason to. The majority of jobs is fucking shit. Have fun finding somebody cleaning pipes for free. What you are advocating is equality of outcome, which is a bizarre notion of socialism that conservatives have. Go try to build one of these hippie communes that got rid of work incentives, they have all failed, even on a minimal communal level.

Ian Clark
Ian Clark

From my experience, when people have more time on their hands the only thing they do is drink, smoke, fight, and fuck. You seem to think that people would naturally spend their free time working hard, creating new technologies, and producing things to give away for free.
Lots of people probably would spend all their free time doing that, and that's okay because as class-cucks love to remind us people are different. Some people live for the sesh, some people really enjoy producing art, some people enjoy working at technology. Especially with art it is something that is fun, it's something that even in capitalism lots of people do without compensation because they enjoy it.

In the case of science and engineering I would consider it socially necessary labour but art is a different matter, it is something that should not be professionalized and instead be accessible to everyone who is interested.

There ARE people who think this way and you have to share a society with them. The only thing you can do about them as a socialist is dump them in a forced labor camp for reeducation, assuming that your viewpoint has the majority otherwise you yourself will be in a camp.
Or we could just vote, make a decision and ignore them since they're such an overwhelming minority that we don't even need to bother engaging with them.

My point was not to ban those things, but that those things aren't deemed necessary enough for compensation.
But they are, schools and internet absolutely are. Some people may disagree but those people aren't very numerous.

owever in response to your question, it depends on the context of "art, internet, and school". Is it unreasonable to ban a school that is teaching false information, or is indoctrinating people in a cult like environment?
That's not banning school, that's regulating education which we all already agree with.

Sebastian Nelson
Sebastian Nelson

Why would you need to regulate other's behavior?

Robert Collins
Robert Collins

From my experience
Stopped

We're not talking about a weekend off you dipshit. If you think people can or would just spend their entire lives doing those things to the exclusion of anything else then you're even more stupid than the people you parody.

Read a fucking book.

Kevin Flores
Kevin Flores

Did the law of value determine production in the USSR?
Yes.
Marx himself advocates for incentives as he propagates labor vouchers.
Labor vouchers aren't an incentive. It's a method of managing scarcity.
that people would just work when they have no reason to
There are more reasons to utilize your labor than simply avoiding starvation.
What you are advocating is equality of outcome
No. I'm not. I'm advocating that a socialist society provide essential necessities to every member of society. We currently produce enough food to ensure everyone gets a meal so this isn't some utopian post-scarcity daydream.
notion of socialism that conservatives have
You seem to have me confused with yourself. You've actually absorbed and accepted anti-communist rhetoric into your world view and adjusted your view of how communism will operate accordingly. It's quite bizarre.

James Lee
James Lee

socialism will work because the vast majority of people act and think like I do

Alright I think I understand where these viewpoints come from. The only real world experience you guys seem to have is the inside of university classrooms, which would also explain why there is no consideration for practical application.

Joseph Green
Joseph Green

I'm a high-school dropout who went straight into the labourforce. I've never seen the inside of a university.

Not to mention that's not the argument anyway.

Julian Peterson
Julian Peterson

muh life experience and anecdotes
hurr people are savages who will without fail and without regard to material conditions destroy themselves in naive hedonism unless daddy whips them into shape
where the fuck do you think culture came from, how culture and science existed before capitalism?

Isaiah Perez
Isaiah Perez

What tha fuck?

Kevin Howard
Kevin Howard

Probably a bot, bitcoin reached an all time high recently.

Brandon Gonzalez
Brandon Gonzalez

The culture fairy, obvs

Charles Clark
Charles Clark

This is what I've gotten out of this thread.
What happens to people that disagree with their current system of socialism?
No one will disagree with the current system of socialism.
What happens when people spend all their free time doing nothing?
Everyone will work in their free time and create everything.

where the fuck do you think culture came from, how culture and science existed before capitalism?
Hunter gatherer societies spent all their time looking for food. All agricultural societies were built on forced labor or straight up slavery. After the bronze age collapse it took 400+ years for people to even pick up writing again.

Why do you think human progress has exponentially exploded in the past few centuries? Maybe it is because of the new idea that people own what they produce? Maybe?

Chase Johnson
Chase Johnson

Maybe it is because of the new idea that people own what they produce?

Cooper Ramirez
Cooper Ramirez

you own what you produce in capitalism

Henry Russell
Henry Russell

All agricultural societies were built on forced labor or straight up slavery.
The feodal peasants owned what they produced, user. Often they had to either pay rent or work the lord's fields for an allotted time but they directly owned their produce.
What are you even trying to say with this? That culture didn't exist before capitalism? That capitalism is somehow a necessity for culture or science, or at least the best possible option even theoretically?
You should note that we aren't advocating for a return to feodalism: capitalism is superior to feudalism and has caused a massive increase in production and so on. It has merely run its course and should be superceded.

Maybe it is because of the new idea that people own what they produce?
Do you own what you produce, user? Or do you perhaps get a wage by selling your labour? Do you understand that there is a difference between the two things? Do you know what (generalised) commodity production means?

Justin Mitchell
Justin Mitchell

Maybe it is because of the new idea that people own what they produce? Maybe?
get the fuck out retard

Luis Ramirez
Luis Ramirez

The feodal peasants owned what they produced
Nope. Some freemen did, where they basically paid rent to their lord but most were legally bonded to tend their lord's fields in exchange for a portion of their lord's harvest.

What are you even trying to say with this?
Your original post and picture seem to say that before capitalism everyone just sat around making music and art for fun while magically having enough resources to sustain themselves which is fucking ridiculous. The reality is the nearly all of human civilization is built upon forced labor which is why it took so long for culture and technology to develop. Compare that to a modern day capitalistic society where progress is lightning fast.

You should note that we aren't advocating for a return to feodalism
The gulag based economy you are advocating is on par with feudalism and human progress would slow to a crawl as a result. That is assuming your system even works at all which it clearly doesn't as we can see from the dozens of failed communist states in the 20th century.

Do you own what you produce, user?
Yes I do. If I write a program in my spare time it is legally mine to sell.

Jonathan Carter
Jonathan Carter

Hey I have a question not necessarily for the borg.

If art is "deprofessionalized" how do books get published? Who decides what movies get shown? Or who gets the budget to make them? Is there anyway that someone can dedicate all their time to art and not have to work? Like maybe if they've proven themselves somehow? I just don't want that really good book to be sitting out there underneath a pile of fantasy novels in some no name province because there's no mass publishing network to get lucky with.

Hmm maybe I should make a thread about this.

Elijah Green
Elijah Green

The state propaganda committee will decide what books you read and what movies you watch.

Christopher Lee
Christopher Lee

Nope. Some freemen did, where they basically paid rent to their lord but most were legally bonded to tend their lord's fields in exchange for a portion of their lord's harvest.
Where did it work mainly like that? In northern Europe people generally owned their smallholdings.

Your original post and picture seem to say that before capitalism everyone just sat around making music and art for fun while magically having enough resources to sustain themselves which is fucking ridiculous.
Maybe it is fucking ridiculous because it is a giant strawman you constructed so it would look ridiculous. The point made was that people do and will spend time on arts and sciences out of their free volition, not just if forced by profit motive. Self-application and self-actualisation are very strong motivators in humans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

The gulag based economy you are advocating is on par with feudalism and human progress would slow to a crawl as a result. That is assuming your system even works at all which it clearly doesn't as we can see from the dozens of failed communist states in the 20th century.
There are non-stalinist strains of socialism, and gulags weren't a feature of even the Soviet Union outside of the stalinist period. I think you are being either intentionally insufferable or just plain ignorant but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

Yes I do. If I write a program in my spare time it is legally mine to sell.
Quite. This would make you a petit-bourgeois. You still have to limit your creative and industrious output to the profit motive. Can't make that which is useful or beautiful if it doesn't sell for whatever reason.

Digitised art is infinitely replicable and trivial to spread. For larger projects, well, one of the reasons I lean marketsoc is that things that are subjective in nature such as the arts would be easier to regulate and prioritise using some market- or pseudo-market mechanisms.

Josiah Harris
Josiah Harris

I know you're shitposting but that's about as good as it is now. I'm hoping for something a little better.

Julian Morris
Julian Morris

how do books get published?
Well now that we have the internet this is really a non-problem.
Who decides what movies get shown?
I assume the workers of movie theatres. Though again we have internet so that's not really a problem either.
Is there anyway that someone can dedicate all their time to art and not have to work? Like maybe if they've proven themselves somehow?
I don't think full time. But I think it would be realistic if you could make it known that you wouldn't be available for socially necessary labour at a given time because you're doing something related to your art. Like if you're shooting a movie somewhere else, or if you play music and you're touring.

Or who gets the budget to make them?
This is a more complicated question. In the USSR the government would fund movies so I suppose that's something but I suppose here is where being proven would be important. Like obviously the government couldn't fund every movie anyone wanted to make, so maybe it would be a matter of already having a portfolio of independent films to prove you're serious and know what you're doing.

Logan Lee
Logan Lee

What book gets published?
Every single one
What movie gets played in cinema?
You have share in the ownership of cinema so you'll get to pick alongside others.

Jayden Flores
Jayden Flores

In northern Europe people generally owned their smallholdings.
AFAIK Scandinavia never had true serfdom. Feudalism there was somewhat different to most of Europe.

Parker Baker
Parker Baker

that is actually true now that I think of it, low population density meant that the cost of labour stayed high and as such even farmers stayed relatively free.

Michael Rodriguez
Michael Rodriguez

Redpill me on marksoc.

And digital is just a little better than it sitting in a pile in some province somewhere. Self-published books on the internet, and I feel like a jerk saying this, are mostly just noise, complete garbage. More people having the means to create art, which we do have now to some extent thanks to modern technology, will just make the good stuff harder to find.

I mean it's great that more people would have time to creatively express themselves but the sad fact is that even in a group of people creating art only like 1/100 actually has any real talent or anything worth saying and those people should be promoted I feel like.

See I knew you guys would bring up digitised art so I should have addressed that in my original post maybe. Refer to the above response on that though.

And I know that me personally enjoying physical copies of books and music is probably just a waste of resources but I guess I'll ask anyways if that should be possible.

I'm aware of how movie making worked in the USSR. And I think it actually worked better over there than the west in some ways. As long as you could prove yourself with short films or participate in some kind of young film makers program that would work I guess.

And come on man. The nationally beloved genius artist in his 50s who spends all day creating doesn't have to bother shoveling shit for a few hours.

Ethan Green
Ethan Green

Socialism, as a radical departure from the current state of things, I think would inherently mean moving beyond some of the things we have now (even if we might enjoy them) for more efficient alternatives. And I think physical media would be one of those things, as much as some people like having physical collections of books or records or such I don't think they're an industry that's really justifiable in a socialist system. We already have the technology to replicate and share infinite amounts of art for free, physical mediums are just a waste when you have that. It would be like keeping cars around even if we had flawless and universally available teleportation.

I realize that right now self-published books are almost universally terrible but this is because actually good authors and poets tend to get scooped up by publishing companies so have no reason to stick to self-publishing when the alternative is vastly more economically lucrative. I don't think this is really true for music however, I think there's a thriving community of self-produced musicians on the internet that make great content for basically nothing. Of course it can be hard to find but once again I think this is down to it being a radical departure from traditional forms of publishing. It's a matter of things being different that takes some getting used to, finding quality art online is very much a matter of word of mouth and algorithms. After a while it's much like online news-broadcasting, eventually you construct your own insulted little bubble where anything you find is more likely than not going to be something you enjoy. Even though it is top-porky this is something I think youtube has down to a T.

The nationally beloved genius artist in his 50s who spends all day creating doesn't have to bother shoveling shit for a few hours.
Really in socialism I don't think anyone should have to work over the age of 50 but let's just pretend he's not in his 50s, he's in his 40s. Why doesn't he? As universally acclaimed as his art is he's still just a normal guy in society like you or me. We all have to work together to keep the lights on and ensure that this society we have where everyone has the time to pursue their own interests and can become great artists like that stays together.

Benjamin Martin
Benjamin Martin

Redpill me on marksoc.
For a starter, read Cockshott's Towards A New Socialism, it's about planned economies but utilises some market mechanisms. I'm not well-read on theory to really formulate a system yet, but the basis of my reasoning is that if socialist and capitalist states or statelike entities are to coexist, the capitalist states are likely to hold some resource the socialist states cannot produce, say a rare earth, or simply that some thing is way easier to produce in a certain location for example. Thus one would have to have something to trade the capitalists with, and commodity production would have to go on.
Also there are qualitative and quantitative goods/produces, and the more quantitative something is the easier it is to generalise for everyone. For example, electricity simply is, there is no good/bad electricity. Arts on the other hand seem to be quite subjective and matters of personal taste. More subjective goods would be under market mechanisms while objective goods would be planned. For mixed cases such as clothes, there would be a guaranteed quota of basic, general product as well as support and incentives for either asking someone to make or design personal clothes or even better, have people make or customise their own clothes, should people want to maximise their self-expression.

More people having the means to create art, which we do have now to some extent thanks to modern technology, will just make the good stuff harder to find.
More space for separate and disparate tastes to form. Do you think people wouldn't talk about the arts they find interesting or worthy to oneother and on a societal level? Reviews and the like would hardly simply disappear.

anything worth saying and those people should be promoted I feel like.
Maybe some kind of an online marketplace where people put their arts for people to enjoy, and should enough people wish to subsidise someone's art they could do it full-time. Or rather, make the time they spend making art into socially necessary. I'm not sure if this is good, however, as it might lead to a new round of commodification.

William Long
William Long

Probably. Most leftists are so caught up in ideology that they don't realize how much they needlessly fetishize workers and capital. Communism ought to be an actually new mode of production free from capitalism's problems (i.e. ecological destruction and the hell of the factory), not just proletarian management of existing infrastructure. Read Camatte.

Zachary King
Zachary King

How can you regulate human behavior without becoming authoritarian?
How do you think things already work?

Tyler Davis
Tyler Davis

If you don't contribute to the economy you don't withdraw from the economy.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

Owen Reed
Owen Reed

The only people who do not participate in the economy are isolated tribes in the Amazonas, and they should be allowed to continue just as before.

Bentley Collins
Bentley Collins

kek

Ethan Perez
Ethan Perez

nothing follow your design

Sebastian Bailey
Sebastian Bailey

Not sure if I should bother responding three hours later…
While your answers are reasonable they're also about what I expected. I don't know, it's hard to imagine a society where people can get by on 2-10 hours of labor a week. So maybe it really will be completely reasonable to expect anybody, no matter how talented and accomplished and beloved, to keep on working and never accept their creative work as socially necessary in itself. (who could even decide that?)
I'm still not really satisfied though. I feel like there at least needs to be some kind of institute where you can go and concentrate 100% of your time on the arts, philosophy, science, research whatever. But there still needs to be some kind of hierarchy in place. Like maybe the primary schooling that everyone participates in will have a way to gauge who would be a proper fit. This hierarchy would serve to justify someone being allowed to dedicate all their time to a creative pursuit I feel.
There could also be a duel power of academic critics and regular peoples opinions on the arts helping to decide what rises above the noise in the end.

Owen Turner
Owen Turner

. I feel like there at least needs to be some kind of institute where you can go and concentrate 100% of your time on the arts, philosophy, science, research whatever.
In the case of philosophy, science and research that's basically what university is. Even if for-profit art would be done away with I don't imagine universities would be.

Like maybe the primary schooling that everyone participates in will have a way to gauge who would be a proper fit. This hierarchy would serve to justify someone being allowed to dedicate all their time to a creative pursuit I feel.
I think when you're grooming people from childhood for leadership in a certain industry and creating a professionalized elite of that field from those children in later life you're moving away from socialism and more into technocracy territory.

If it's such a big deal maybe it would be a better idea to have syndicates of artists which have a number of positions not unlike tenure where they can democratically vote on how they feel are the best for them. So if all the other directors for instance feel that some specific director is particularly influential, or innovative, or accomplished they could divide the labour time normally committed by those directors between themselves and let them work on their art full time.

I had a similar thought about movie theatres, art galleries and the like. Maybe everyone with an interest in those things could sign on to work there some of the time and get a vote on what they would show.

Brody Evans
Brody Evans

I think when you're grooming people from childhood for leadership in a certain industry and creating a professionalized elite of that field from those children in later life you're moving away from socialism and more into technocracy territory.
Well as long as you can still take voluntary classes or participate in programs later in life and study on your own so that there can still later be a way to change your position in society or what your focus is then I really don't have a problem with a schooling system, while not really being competitive, at least having some kind a scientifically backed way of figuring out what people are best fit for. I'm thinking about this in terms of people's personalities and what will make them feel most satisfied with their lives as well as what their natural ability and progression through education will lend them towards.

I also want to emphasise that their should be a place, if there are still higher level students who participate only in learning and research, for art as well. I've heard varying stories of art schools being just as bad as they look in Clowes' Art School Confidential as well as art schools where it was the complete opposite case. I recall David Lynch telling a story about experiencing both cases. The latter of which he attributed a lot of personal growth too.
And of course I'm not saying such institutes should be the only avenues either.

So if all the other directors for instance feel that some specific director is particularly influential, or innovative, or accomplished they could divide the labour time normally committed by those directors between themselves and let them work on their art full time.
I like the general idea of this but my god I can't even imagine how you could organize such a thing. "Oh yes come join we all collect our work order tokens and take volunteers to take care of certain peoples work obligation so they can concentrate on their art that we all respect and enjoy" my god I can't imagine it not being a bureaucratic nightmare. You'd need some kind of computer network that connects everyone involved keeps track of theur quotas as well as advanced ai and administrators that can make sure they are not just abusing the system in some way. I think I'm getting dizzy thinking about it.

I had a similar thought about movie theatres, art galleries and the like. Maybe everyone with an interest in those things could sign on to work there some of the time and get a vote on what they would show.
Ehhh I've heard that said before…idk man. I don't think I want cultural artifacts being handled by random people who just happen to be interested. You need really special care with some of these things I think. Should work out fine for newer stuff though.
Of course I guess some socialists would want to burn away all classical culture maybe? That would be sad.

Jace Johnson
Jace Johnson

Having some kind of tracked schooling system where a personality test determines your course of study sounds absolutely horrid.

Jace Morales
Jace Morales

Tru, even though you're predisposed to be good at something doesn't mean you'll like doing it. Still it'd be nice to have a society that pushes people into areas that they'll excel in.

Liam Sullivan
Liam Sullivan

As long as it's still open to personal preference then I don't see why it's so bad. Also everyone will have the same educatuon up to a point. Everyone should have a basis in math/history/philosophy etc.

implying muh super ai wouldn't already know which personalities are more likely to not like the system and find ways to satisfy even these people
we should also do this with relationships but that's a different conversation.

Bentley Moore
Bentley Moore

I don't know, it's hard to imagine a society where people can get by on 2-10 hours of labor a week.
The labour itself would also be very different in socialism, much more self-coordinated and generally less soul-destroying.

never accept their creative work as socially necessary in itself. (who could even decide that?)
The society, through either democratic descision making or a pseudo-market mechanism for example.

Like maybe the primary schooling that everyone participates in will have a way to gauge who would be a proper fit.
This sort of thing very easliy leads to stultification, hegemonism and stagnation. But perhaps there is a way to maintain dynamism as well as a regulating body.

You'd need some kind of computer network that connects everyone involved
oh my god how can we ever create a computer network that connects multiple people for real time communication

"Oh yes come join we all collect our work order tokens and take volunteers to take care of certain peoples work obligation so they can concentrate on their art that we all respect and enjoy"
people tracking their abstract resource token currency via electronics in real time how futuristic

William Murphy
William Murphy

I'm thinking about this in terms of people's personalities and what will make them feel most satisfied with their lives as well as what their natural ability and progression through education will lend them towards.
Well at that point I think we need to consider what a socialist society's actual goals and values are. In my mind it's more freedom and equality for everyone. I think grooming people for careers from childhood and trying to "scientifically" allocate positions and even form hierarchies is totally contrary to this. People should just be left to figure out their own lives as they're going to be better equipped to do it than any education network. Your livelihood is something personal and intimate that really no one else can decide for you, and grooming people during their formative years is ultimately obstructing their pursuit of this.

for art as well.
Well that's basically what I'm suggesting with the syndicates thing since obviously art professors and accomplished artists are different things. But I'll address your point on that now.

I can't imagine it not being a bureaucratic nightmare
Really I think it's massively less bureaucratic than the present day publishing and production industry is. Really you just need a closed website for people in the syndicate, then the first thing to be voted on is how many hours per week they're willing to give up. Then from that a very simple formula could calculate how many positions of full time artists are available based on that vote compared to the present membership. Then it's a matter of just submitting your preferred candidate with the positions being allocated first to the most popular, then the second most popular and so forth according to how many available positions have been calculated to be available.

Cybersecurity would obviously be the biggest problem but that's something I think could be handled by one government institution that would already need to exist anyway for the maintenance of a cybernetic socialist system.

I don't think I want cultural artifacts being handled by random people who just happen to be interested. You need really special care with some of these things I think.
I don't mean literally handling ancient artifacts, I meant more like mopping floors, cleaning toilets and handing out popcorn. Though obviously more specialized work is required maybe it would be a good idea to integrate museums, galleries and so forth into universities so that actual archaeologists and art historians could make sure everything is running as it should.

Juan Foster
Juan Foster

AI assigned relationships

Zachary Powell
Zachary Powell

If we're going to have a directly democratic society this is an absolute non-problem.
That's not for you to determine
did you even read his post? It's the commune that determines

Elijah Morales
Elijah Morales

Hey bro I wasn't talking to a marksuc with that second post. Obviously the entire conversation is different if we have currency and market forces.

This sort of thing very easliy leads to stultification, hegemonism and stagnation. But perhaps there is a way to maintain dynamism as well as a regulating body.
I'm pretty aware of all the downfalls if it was completely soulless and purely buaracratic. I think education should be encouraging freedom and exploration. I just also think that it could be benificial if it encouraged people to lean towards their strengths and talents rather than being completely hands off. I mean if someone would make a really great engineer but just wants to shovel shit and read comic books all day then it's probably societies fault for not motivating them enough.

The labour itself would also be very different in socialism, much more self-coordinated and generally less soul-destroying.
Yeah I can't imagine this either. That makes me pretty sad.

Your livelihood is something personal and intimate that really no one else can decide for you, and grooming people during their formative years is ultimately obstructing their pursuit of this.
But what if no one wants to shovel shit? I'm not shitposting I swear

Really I think it's massively less bureaucratic than the present day publishing and production industry is.
I guess that's objectively true but it still sounds pretty complicated. I have no idea how you can keep track of all the labor each person is obligated to so and still make sure it gets done even if that person doesn't do it. I'm probably just misunderstanding something here though.
I'm not sure I like the idea of everything being democratic at every level. What if people just form cliques and only vote for their friends or they only vote for people who are good at selling themselves to everyone and not the actual merits of the work itself? There needs to be some kind of quality control I think. Even if it works in tandem with the democratic aspect.

Though obviously more specialized work is required maybe it would be a good idea to integrate museums, galleries and so forth into universities so that actual archaeologists and art historians could make sure everything is running as it should.
Well then we totally agree on that point.

AI assigned relationships
Yeah why not? Again I just mean as a general guideline. You obviously shouldn't be forced into a house with someone you hate.

Caleb Jenkins
Caleb Jenkins

But what if no one wants to shovel shit?
Unskilled, tedious, and possibly gross work like this is something I think should be rotationally assigned to everyone as a form of community service rather than a full time career. Not unlike jury duty. I feel the same way about law-enforcement in a socialist society, not because no one would want to do it but because I think it would be good for having a healthy, transparent and functioning justice system.

I have no idea how you can keep track of all the labor each person is obligated to so and still make sure it gets done even if that person doesn't do it.
Well once again it's cybernetic, we all already would be working the same socially-necessary labour hours every week and we'd clock in and clock out at the computer. In the case of things like artist syndicates the system would be fed this information and so update your hours to reflect the syndicate decision on your extra time. We already had a system somewhat like this at my last job where the computers would snitch to your manager if you weren't in on time, or logged out too early, or were taking longer or extra breaks.

What if people just form cliques and only vote for their friends or they only vote for people who are good at selling themselves to everyone and not the actual merits of the work itself?
I think in any kind of democracy this is a necessary evil that we're going to have to live with, all we can really do is be conscious of it and try to resist it in our own decisions. But in the case of cliques I think it would very unfeasible for someone to have such a large network of friends since I imagine the syndicates would be nationwide or regional so they would include very many thousands of people. Maybe even over a million in some parts of the world, actually given that we're expecting socialism to make the arts more accessible to people possibly even millions of people. I'm pretty sure voting for your friends would just be a total waste of a vote.

I think having some form of quality control would be a potentially bigger problem than charismatic artists being favoured over accomplished artists. As that would just create new vulnerabilities to potential favouritism or even corruption as a significantly smaller group of people have a disproportionately large say compared to the regular electorate.

Yeah why not? Again I just mean as a general guideline. You obviously shouldn't be forced into a house with someone you hate.
Well for much the same reasons I was saying people should decide their own livelihood. Your significant other is another deeply personal and intimate matter that you yourself can only really decide. As much as I dislike being single I find the idea of being assigned a partner by an algorithm really unnerving.

Maybe as an optional service but I'm really creeped out by the concept of the government applying this to everyone.

Luke Jenkins
Luke Jenkins

Unskilled, tedious, and possibly gross work like this is something I think should be rotationally assigned to everyone as a form of community service rather than a full time career.
That actually makes sense. Were you serious about two hour work weeks though? Or did you mean a day? I'm not sure if you can call somethign you only do for 2-10 hours a week a career.

I feel the same way about law-enforcement in a socialist society, not because no one would want to do it but because I think it would be good for having a healthy, transparent and functioning justice system.
I really like this idea. I'm also reservedly ok with mandatory military service though (with the argument that it would reduce war in a democratic country (though Israel makes me question this logic)).

Well once again it's cybernetic
Do you mean we'd have chips in our body or something? You're a weird kind of anarchist.
n the case of things like artist syndicates the system would be fed this information and so update your hours to reflect the syndicate decision on your extra time.
Yeah then I understand it I guess. Pretty neat. Not sure who's inventing all this advanced bureaucratic scifi tech though.

I think having some form of quality control would be a potentially bigger problem than charismatic artists being favored over accomplished artists. As that would just create new vulnerabilities to potential favouritism or even corruption as a significantly smaller group of people have a disproportionately large say compared to the regular electorate.
Eh you have a point. I just realized I was arguing for something not unlike the electoral college in american politics which makes me feel kind of dirty now. And I surely don't want a government force deciding what is "ok art" and what is "not ok art". So I'm probably just used to the idea of their being some kind of middle ground.
I guess I don't really care then. If all culture becomes youtube videos I'll be happy as long as theirs older stuff freely available.

Maybe as an optional service but I'm really creeped out by the concept of the government applying this to everyone.
Yeah it would definitely be something you opt into. Of course then you'd only get assigned with the kind of person who would sign up for such a service/program. But if it ends up having really great results then naturally you'd have more single people wanting to join in. Of course this will be for monogamous relationships. Polys can fuck off and make their own I think.

As much as I dislike being single I find the idea of being assigned a partner by an algorithm really unnerving.
See I'm speaking from my own experiences on this. I was single and miserable for a long time. I also had a few relationships that were almost equally as miserable.
But when I met my bf we had such an immediate connection it almost felt like destiny, like we were made for each other, like our personalities and preferences just happened to complement each other really well. Yet we ended up talking completely by chance and were on opposite sides of the country. I just happened to have a nest egg saved up that could move him over to me Before this I just thought relationships were supposed to be kind of shitty.
So I don't know. Maybe a nation wide match making service could have gotten us together earlier. Maybe it really is about matching the right people together and letting sparks fly. Maybe your aversion is just spooks.
Maybe we were only ready for each other specifically because we had already had years of being miserable so that we knew exactly what we wanted so I'm completely full of shit. I just feel sorry for all the lonely anons really. The idea that there really is someone perfect out there for you and you'll never meet them is really sad I think.

Jackson Bennett
Jackson Bennett

Were you serious about two hour work weeks though?
Did I say that?

I'm also reservedly ok with mandatory military service though
I think in a socialist society the actual standing army should actually very small and limited to skilled fields of expertise while every able bodied person between the ages of 16 and 50 is armed and trained to act as the actual infantry in the event of invasion or for whatever reason a different kind of war. In the case of non-defensive wars it would also make sense for these people do directly vote on whether we go to war or not since they're the ones who are going to be fighting and dying in it, with the ones that voted yes having a priority for being deployed.

Do you mean we'd have chips in our body or something? You're a weird kind of anarchist.
I'm not an anarchist. We just don't have a regular transhumanist flag. And while I do think we should eventually have cybernetic augmentations that's not what I meant, I meant economic management cybernetics. Like CyberSyn or Cockshott.

Yeah it would definitely be something you opt into.
Well that's okay then I guess, kind of like a really advanced futuristic dating site.

Jaxson Rogers
Jaxson Rogers

The state propaganda committee will decide what books you read and what movies you watch.
You're not wrong.

Evan Hill
Evan Hill

You participate in the economy by merely existing.
You are a consumer, this makes you a participant. You consume food, you also pay for electricity and the internet.

Logan Davis
Logan Davis

The state propaganda committee will decide what books you read
Good luck with that, I doubt contemporary people have the ability to read and understand multiple coherent sentences in succession.

and what movies you watch
Can only get better from what we have today. People unironically think, Zack Snyder is a genius.

Kevin Scott
Kevin Scott

Did I say that?
I can't remember it's been hours dude. How many hours should people work? 40 feels like too much.

In the case of non-defensive wars it would also make sense for these people do directly vote on whether we go to war or not since they're the ones who are going to be fighting and dying in it, with the ones that voted yes having a priority for being deployed.
Yeah we're on the same page here. Wouldn't a non-hierarchical society get completely stomped by a strict hierarchical one in the the realm of war though? I base this on nothing but my own retardation but it sure sounds like it makes sense.

Like CyberSyn or Cockshott.
Oh yeah I remember we had a huge thread on this that i never clicked on. That's two anons telling me to read Cockshott. I guess I'll read Cockshott next time I see the pdf floating around.

Well that's okay then I guess, kind of like a really advanced futuristic dating site.
Yeah. Not sure what sexuality and relationships would be like far into socialism though so I'm really just thinking about how to solve the lonely user problem from now's perspective.

They better have good taste in music at least.

Kayden Rivera
Kayden Rivera

use the technocrat flag fam

Easton Hernandez
Easton Hernandez

how many hours should people work?
should
Democracy is the most terminal form of cancer tbh

Lincoln Rivera
Lincoln Rivera

Wha. I was just asking his general opinion.

Blake Gutierrez
Blake Gutierrez

I know, but the idea that someone is going to decide for me how many hours I am allowed to work is such an affront to my humanity, I'm shocked Marxism hasn't fizzled yet

Logan Roberts
Logan Roberts

How many hours should people work? 40 feels like too much.
20 is very realistic with a four hour workday and a four day work week. Maybe even less given how long it's been since work hours were reduced despite how insanely high productivity has gotten.

Wouldn't a non-hierarchical society get completely stomped by a strict hierarchical one in the the realm of war though?
I do think we should have a hierarchical army with a proper chain of command, commanders would be one of those skilled professions I was talking about. But otherwise I think the advantage of hierarchical armies over more horizontally organized ones is greatly exaggerated though, I mean the Kurds have done pretty great against ISIS.

I think the kind of socialist army I'm describing which potentially includes every able bodied person as well as a socialist meritocratic selection of officers would absolutely crush modern armies. From what I've heard officer selection is classist as fuck and rife with dynastic politics and really not that many people are in the armed forces. Following the French revolution France was able to solo every other country in Europe at once thanks to their meritocratic commanders and new policy of conscription while the rest of Europe was still using lords as commanders and had relatively small armies.

But I'm not a technocrat either. Technocracy is rule by the skilled rather than a socialist system supplemented by advanced technology.

Evan Young
Evan Young

but the idea that someone is going to decide for me how many hours I am allowed to work is such an affront to my humanity
Yeah, how horrible. Thank god we have don't have that in capitalism. Yup, my boss lets me pick my own hours.

Chase Hernandez
Chase Hernandez

capitalism does this too
…yes. which is why i hate capitalism and, likewise, consider it to be an affront to people's humanity

Robert Rivera
Robert Rivera

Okay, so what's your suggestion for a system that isn't capitalist, Marxist or democratic where you get to pick your own work hours?

Christian Jenkins
Christian Jenkins

Tankies have a real fucking stick up their ass about the definition of work that would leave a lot of artists and writers and journalists with nowhere to go but end their career.

Jeremiah Ramirez
Jeremiah Ramirez

20 is very realistic with a four hour workday and a four day work week.
Yeah you probably said 20. I guess I could work 20 hours. As long as it's socially necessary.

I think the kind of socialist army I'm describing which potentially includes every able bodied person as well as a socialist meritocratic selection of officers would absolutely crush modern armies.
I think that's probably true. How would Kurds last if america decided they were enemy number one though?

I've heard officer selection is classist as fuck and rife with dynastic politics and really not that many people are in the armed forces.
It really is infuriating how just a simple idea like meritocracy is absolutely impossible in capitalist societies. There's such a fucking imbalance with how many people are successful because of actual hardwork/skill and how many people are successful because of daddy. I could never be a technocrat though even though I probably sound like I want that.

Austin Walker
Austin Walker

How would Kurds last if america decided they were enemy number one though?
They would get absolutely destroyed. But that has less to do with their mode of organization and more to do with the fact that that the USA has infinitely more soldiers and advanced weapons than they do. I mean if the USA decided they really, really wanted to conquer somewhere by any means necessary there's very few armies that could resist them hierarchical or not.

Though as said I don't believe horizontal armies are a goal worth pursuing.

It really is infuriating how just a simple idea like meritocracy is absolutely impossible in capitalist societies
I used to be a MarkSucc and tbh the reason I stopped was because capital accumulation in any form is going to eventually erode meritocracy to nothing. It's the same with capitalism, no matter how meritocratic your system starts off if people are allowed to accumulate wealth it's an inevitability that it will concentrate at the top and create a new aristocracy. What we're seeing right now is the product of meritocratic ideas + 200 years of capital accumulation. Having an entrenched elite will eventually poison every field.

For similar reasons I have massive misgivings about a socialist society tolerating families but that's another matter.

Dylan Miller
Dylan Miller

Anarchism.

Jason Anderson
Jason Anderson

anarchism
not democratic

Christian Wood
Christian Wood

I mean if the USA decided they really, really wanted to conquer somewhere by any means necessary there's very few armies that could resist them hierarchical or not.
Who knows though. If the draft came back maybe that would be the one thing to wake up americans.
m-m-m-my Billy has to go die fighting sand niggers?? He's supposed to be a lawyer like his father!
Though my grandmas always told me that our right wing destroyed education because having an actually educated electorate is what resulted in the massive resentment over Vietnam, a war that no one with a brain could really see a reason to be involved in. So idk. Just kill me I guess.

I used to be a MarkSucc and tbh the reason I stopped was because capital accumulation in any form is going to eventually erode meritocracy to nothing.
That was pretty much what I always assumed the big problem with marcsucs was. I think the yugo poster had a point that it might incentivize cap countries from wrecking you maybe. Again though I'm american. I'd take left-anything at this point.

For similar reasons I have massive misgivings about a socialist society tolerating families but that's another matter.
Do you just mean traditional families vs extended families?

Carter Flores
Carter Flores

Democracy is just majoritarianism and majoritarianism requires physical coercion for uniform compliance of the minority. In what way is 55% of people forcing 45% of people to do something against their will an anarchist principle?

Colton Reyes
Colton Reyes

Though my grandmas always told me that our right wing destroyed education because having an actually educated electorate is what resulted in the massive resentment over Vietnam, a war that no one with a brain could really see a reason to be involved in.
It wouldn't surprise me if the US's insane pay barrier to quality education and healthcare was a recruiting tool for the military. I mean if you're too poor for either but the military will give you both for free as long as you agree to kill brown people why wouldn't you?

Really though America is fucked and the sooner they start putting their right to bare arms to good use the better.

I think the yugo poster had a point that it might incentivize cap countries from wrecking you maybe.
It would but you could also completely avoid getting wrecked by imperialists if you never went for anything-socialism. It's not really a good reason to subscribe to a less-sustainable system for that reason.

Do you just mean traditional families vs extended families?
No I mean any kind of family. Ideally I would have babies taken from their parents at birth and raised communally by the government without ever knowing who their real parents are. Of course you could never implement that in any kind of free and democratic society and it opens up new problems about indoctrination and childhood emotional development so families are probably just a necessary evil we're going to have to accept.

Right, how is this anarchism that's neither democratic no capitalist going to work?

Isaac Gonzalez
Isaac Gonzalez

what is post-lefty anarchy

Hudson Rivera
Hudson Rivera

Yeah, what is post-left anarchy?

Looking it up rn and it sounds like utopian bullshit.

Hunter Thompson
Hunter Thompson

It wouldn't surprise me if the US's insane pay barrier to quality education and healthcare was a recruiting tool for the military.
It certainly is. Military is always an option for anyone poor and alienated.
I was mainly talking about how the right wing has raped the hell out of public education though. Religion plays a BIG part in this in america. And our "left" just smiles and lets it all happen.
Oh and obviously anybody with money can send their kids to a nice private school away from all the horrible minorities.

Really though America is fucked and the sooner they start putting their right to bare arms to good use the better.
I wish. We're the final boss a capitalism. Every capitalist trick to keep the working class from gaining class consciousness was mastered here I swear. The same people who would normally be developing any kind of class frustrations are the same people who believe Obama is a communist terrorist spy. (this is not an exaggeration, people here really believe that)

It's not really a good reason to subscribe to a less-sustainable system for that reason.
Well I meant as something transitional. I mean america is gonna come stomp you no matter what eventually anyways.

Ideally I would have babies taken from their parents at birth and raised communally by the government without ever knowing who their real parents are
Holy shit I'm sorry I asked lmao

Kayden Price
Kayden Price

"Anarcho-syndicalism does not make a radical break with the present society. It merely seeks to extend this society's values so they dominate us more fully in our daily lives. Thus, the bourgeois liberal is content to get rid of priests and kings, and the anarcho-syndicalist throws in presidents and bosses. But the factories remain intact, the stores remain intact (though the syndicalists may call them distribution centers), the family remains intact — the entire social system remains intact. If our daily activity has not significantly changed — and the anarcho-syndicalists give no indication of wanting to change it beyond adding the burden of managing the factories to that of working in them — then what difference does it make if there are no bosses? — We're still slaves!"
It's largely a rejection of Social Ecology and the authoritarian tendencies of leftism. It's a pivot away from "the good of the whole" to the "good of the individual" and a shift towards work as something done for subsistence and pleasure, rather than propping up a larger socio-poltical distribution organization. It rubs dangerously up against anarcho-primitivism, i will grant that.
utopian bullshit
All anarchy is, but post-left anarchy is the most desirable utopian fantasy

Caleb Martin
Caleb Martin

Every capitalist trick to keep the working class from gaining class consciousness was mastered here I swear.
Isn't the lack of "class consciousness" in America due to the continuous and broad nature of American SES? It seems incredibly difficult to tell someone living a very comfortable and enjoyable upper-middle class life that they need to risk their life for revolutionary change that makes sure everyone is equal. You don't need tricks for that, people naturally don't want change if they're comfortable.

Cameron Sullivan
Cameron Sullivan

Religion plays a BIG part in this in america.
wtf? How do they spin that one?

The same people who would normally be developing any kind of class frustrations are the same people who believe Obama is a communist terrorist spy.
iktf
Here in the UK we have tabloid newspapers that are something like what I understand talk radio is in the USA. And the pure bullshit they come out with a shocking amount of people believe in is insane. It's not near USA tier but capitalism has gotten very good at turning proles against their own interests.

Well I meant as something transitional.
Maybe but I think capital accumulation should probably be one of your first priorities as things to do away with as a fledgling socialist society. If you let it happen before long you're going to have a class of kulaks that are going to be a constant thorn in the side of any moves towards more comprehensive socialism. It's better than nothing though but I feel like it would be putting the gains of a revolution at stake.

Holy shit I'm sorry I asked lmao
Don't bully, I realize it sounds nuts which is why I don't suggest it as a serious policy.

Thomas Jackson
Thomas Jackson

I don't think there's as many comfortable upper-middle class as you think in america. And generally they're walled off in their own communities going to their own schools and hiring only eachother. Yes I agree that you can't really rely on these people to go any further left than Hillary.
This class is getting smaller every day though. Keep in mind america has entire states that are practically third-world countries. Also keep in mind no one is more ignorant than americans, this ignorance has nothing to do with class btw, it is pervasive no matter what your background. I'm trying not to go on and on here. America's is an infinitely convoluted maze of stupidity that never has a satisfying answer and I could talk about it forever and ever.

wtf? How do they spin that one?
Easy. Public schools are trying to teach your kids to be atheist gay commie muslims. The state will literally take funds from public schools and pay you to homeschool your child or seek "alternative methods". Think charter schools. Pushing those is basically the DeVos mission.

It's not near USA tier but capitalism has gotten very good at turning proles against their own interests.
You stupid bong. I just realized we probably got the idea from you guys! I see those kinds of magazines at EVERY SINGLE GROCERY STORE CHECKOUT COUNTER. And they were full on the Trump train of course.

but I feel like it would be putting the gains of a revolution at stake
Eh that's tough I guess.

I realize it sounds nuts which is why I don't suggest it as a serious policy
Well as long as you realize. I'm a real sucker for the idea of an extended family myself. Just seems like old people were meant to retire to hanging around the house and helping out with kids and shit.
I'm gay though so I guess I really don't give a shit when push comes to shove, I just feel sorry for the old people I guess

Oliver Sullivan
Oliver Sullivan

Public schools are trying to teach your kids to be atheist gay commie muslims. The state will literally take funds from public schools and pay you to homeschool your child or seek "alternative methods". Think charter schools.
Well that sucks. A friend of mine was home-schooled by fundamentalist protestants and he says any actual education was non-existent. Opposing education for kids is literally 19th century politics.

I see those kinds of magazines at EVERY SINGLE GROCERY STORE CHECKOUT COUNTER. And they were full on the Trump train of course.
I seriously can't believe this nonsense would actually catch on anywhere else. It's literally just sports, tits and insane sensationalist news. Actually scratch that, I'd be surprised if it didn't catch on.

I'm a real sucker for the idea of an extended family myself.
The extended family is probably the best, most realistic option we have but at the same time I think a problem it might pose that a lot of people don't consider is tribalism. Here travellers live like that and have weird little dynasties among themselves and I understand it's somewhat similar in countries that still have it as the norm.

Xavier Gonzalez
Xavier Gonzalez

These covers are pretty hilarious though. Our's are just hateful and scary for the most part. It's interesting knowing what a huge chunk of america is thinking though.

Opposing education for kids is literally 19th century politics.
Um it's not opposing education for kids?? We love kids?? Sorry if we just know that the free market can handle your child's education a whole lot better than those terribly underfunded public schools. (this is the alternative to the paranoid religious pearl clutching argument)

The extended family is probably the best, most realistic option we have but at the same time I think a problem it might pose that a lot of people don't consider is tribalism.
Well again I'm thinking relative to what would be better now in my capitalist hellscape. It would certainly be an improvement here where families are just stranded with no support all over the country.
Here travellers live like that and have weird little dynasties among themselves and I understand it's somewhat similar in countries that still have it as the norm.
I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by this. Travelers?

John Perez
John Perez

Make no mistake, tabloid headlines are comedy gold. Probably why they're such good propaganda.

It would certainly be an improvement here where families are just stranded with no support all over the country.
Realistically it's hard for anything not to be an improvement. Weird atomized, rapidly disintegrating nuclear families where kids are raised by YouTube because both parents have to work full time are definitely among the worst possible family situations.

I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by this. Travelers?
Travellers are Irish gypsies. They're basically a third-world country within a first-world country. Imagine Appalachian trailer-park rednecks+nomadic lifestyles+hundreds of years of insular cultural evolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

What I mean is they organize themselves into extended families rather than nuclear families and the result is something resembling patriarchal medieval dynasties. Lots of weird violent clannish feuding, bizarre traditions and hardcore repression.

Carson Cooper
Carson Cooper

Realistically it's hard for anything not to be an improvement.
I Just. Want. ANYTHING. to get better. God damn.

Travellers are Irish gypsies. They're basically a third-world country within a first-world country. Imagine Appalachian trailer-park rednecks+nomadic lifestyles+hundreds of years of insular cultural evolution.
What the fuck. I've literally never heard of this. It even says some of them are in america.

What I mean is they organize themselves into extended families rather than nuclear families and the result is something resembling patriarchal medieval dynasties. Lots of weird violent clannish feuding, bizarre traditions and hardcore repression.
Well that is indeed the weirdest shit ever. I'm not sure I'd base my opinion on families around these people but you actually do have a point I think. Only because I've just recalled tropes in old tv shows about feuding redneck families. Still though. I'm desperate for any improvements like I said.

Luke Martin
Luke Martin

Time for a simplistic brainlet af answer.
What happens if I choose not to participate in the economy?
You get your shit but everyone dislikes you and might not give their services to you.
Do I get gulaged?
Effectively. "Social" gulag one might say.
Isn't this a problem?
People need to work to get food because if no one works to get food, everyone starves. Work will be done.
How can you regulate human behavior without becoming authoritarian?
idfk

Bentley Adams
Bentley Adams

Yeah they're a weird bunch. They also have lots of incest and arranged marriages.

I'm not sure I'd base my opinion on families around these people but you actually do have a point I think.
I'm sure their general culture and poverty probably has a lot more to do with their situation than their family unit but nonetheless I do think there's a strong correlation between extended family units and clannish behaviour. You can see similar phenomena in places like India or among immigrant communities.

Maybe socialism will bring a completely new type of family unit that no one thought of yet.

Cameron Stewart
Cameron Stewart

Maybe socialism will bring a completely new type of family unit that no one thought of yet.
Yeah I guess so. In a hundred years when half the earth is unlivable but what's left of civilization decided to finally kill the profit motive. (this is the good ending where america is completely destroyed)

Also I have nothing else to say but thanks for the talk user.

Ethan Murphy
Ethan Murphy

You're welcome, nice talking to you too.

Also polite sage because this thread has gone on for long enough and gone wildly off-topic.

Austin Cooper
Austin Cooper

Hunter gatherer societies spent all their time looking for food.
Lol get a load of this brainlet

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Disable AdBlock to view this page