This thread again

Tyler Jackson
Tyler Jackson

leftypol be like
we are not utopians at all.
<but labour vouchers will solve everything

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Critque_of_the_Gotha_Programme.pdf
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf
Nolan Foster
Nolan Foster

seriously what is in that book written by Bordiga? does it just say "everything actual leftists do, do the opposite"? because that's all leftcoms seem to do.

Daniel Johnson
Daniel Johnson

does it just say "everything actual leftists do, just sit and complain about it?"

ftfy

Jackson Scott
Jackson Scott

hide leftcom threads
ignore leftcom posts
do not reply to leftcom posters

Xavier Adams
Xavier Adams

implying im a bordigist

Cooper Cox
Cooper Cox

1964277

Oliver Lopez
Oliver Lopez

1964305
you're a nazi and a classcuck who wants slavery

Elijah Moore
Elijah Moore

everything actual leftists do, do the opposite
Actually Dauvé was the one who said that.

Blake Robinson
Blake Robinson

Some notes on Eros and Civilization by Marcuse on a kind of practical "utopia":
Schiller lays out a theory that is almost utopian but works within the framework of freud’s thought. There is a bridge between the reality principle and pleasure principle via Kant’s idea of justice (the bridge between the ideal (sensuousness) and reality being aesthetics). This Aesthetic principle allows the the pleasure principle to be able to separate itself from the reality principle and replace it with a new reality principle (based in aesthetics), the latter only being possible when culture has reached a higher level and automation has made labour and work minimal. Then time is overcome and a new culture can be built where the pleasure principle doesn’t destroy all of society and history, though there is a risk here of total failure.

Fourier takes a bit more ‘conservative’ approach by stating that via “pleasurable action” the repressive nature of civilization can be overcome. This requires a bureaucracy of some kind that is able to turn play into work thus overcome the pleasure/reality principle conflict. Also Fourier goes into the idea the Eros (as defined by Freud, who never drew a complete line in his definition between eros and sexuality) will becoming an all encompassing ideal of sexuality. Instead of sexuality being a kind of counter-force to allow the continuation of the the repressive reality principle it instead is allowed to expand and project itself for itself and not in the service of an external force.

Final chapter is on how the ego is the producer of the death instinct by putting a finality to all pleasure (thus making even pleasure pain). The death instinct is the greatest ally to civilization in that it puts a great deal of pressure on people so that they can have an ‘egoized’ view and experience of death, one that perpetuates civilization. Only when death is seen as a choice and something that is tackled rationality, when death is on man’s terms can this powerful tool of civilization be turned against it.

Christopher Howard
Christopher Howard

Work hours were decreased and pay increased. Unless that's during the war or counting unemployed people, because if you count the unemployed then yeah before Hitler people worked less per week since so many were jobless.

Jayden Reyes
Jayden Reyes

hey commie cuck

look up war communism

now shut the fuck up degenerate

Jose Young
Jose Young

freud
i bet you also believe logic is a spook or something as retarded as such

Ryder Roberts
Ryder Roberts

except working hours were increased and wages were frozen. stop getting your "facts" from stormfront.
I'm the cuck but it's okay to be enslaved by your boss as long as he's white
tells me to look up shit he knows nothing about

Charles Moore
Charles Moore

keep this discussion of ours to the dubtrack room my spooky friend

Grayson Baker
Grayson Baker

What's your problem with them?

People's knowledge of left communism is so memetic that they think Bordiga opposed labor vouchers. Nigga he advocated for them like most other Marxcoms, complete with the conventional lower-higher phase hypothesis.

Anthony Allen
Anthony Allen

is that a challegne?

Xavier Jenkins
Xavier Jenkins

The economy grew. Wages increased. What you can complain about is corporate profits grew more, to which the average worker would say they don't give a shit.

James Martinez
James Martinez

please i made this thread to discuss actual theory.
you better learn economics or leave

Daniel Bennett
Daniel Bennett

When did we say that it will solve everything? It would be pretty trying to say everytime after mentioning it that we should go further though someday.

Jackson Sullivan
Jackson Sullivan

Only because you said please, anon-kun :3

Dominic Wood
Dominic Wood

As an anarchist, I honestly dont think labour vouchers are the solution…

They could be useful in some cases but I think there needs to be a pluralism of different systems than just labour vouchers

Christopher Stewart
Christopher Stewart

when will you retards understand? you can pay the proletariat as high a wage you want, the employers are still profiting. gold plating and jewel encrusting doesn't make the worker's chains any less cruel, just more grandiose.

Leo Bailey
Leo Bailey

Leftcoms be like
We are not utopian
<But worldwide simulatinous spontanious revolution only guys

Xavier Kelly
Xavier Kelly

that's not the meaning of utopian

Levi Perry
Levi Perry

If advocating labour vouchers is utopian, then Marx, Engels, Bordiga and Pannekoek must all have been utopians, it's only really the communisation theorists that object to them (and even they acknowledge that communisation will not be instantaneous). Now will you please take off that flag until you know what the fuck you are talking about, I'm tired your constant false flagging.

Anthony Cruz
Anthony Cruz

wages increased
Were their increase proportional to the increase of industry? if not, wages actually decreased. c'mon this is simple stuff, surely a well read educated race realist member of the master race would be able to understand this.

Alexander Diaz
Alexander Diaz

Except for when we are unashamedly utopian

Blake Cruz
Blake Cruz

His link shows that the answer was clearly no. Labor's share of the economy fell from 56% to 51.8%

So basically the economy rapidly improved (which tends to be a thing right after depressions) and the workers were held down and prevented from seeing the full benefit.

Benjamin Wilson
Benjamin Wilson

leaving when I was about to post my argument
pretty spooky tbh

Jack Wood
Jack Wood

In the afterword Marcuse goes into the revisionist modern freudian psychotherapy and philosophy; people like Harry Sullivan and Erich Fromm. He points out that they see man as a ‘whole’ up against society instead of a product of nature that is in an artificial construct called civilization, and they do not take into account the contradictions inherent in civilization because of this view. They see the pleasure principle as a thing that must ‘come into balance’ with the reality principle. Of course ironically they don’t realize that by doing this they are just becoming another tool of civilization to enforce the reality principle upon the pleasure principle. They also find the regulation of sex vital to happiness but at the same time don’t see sexuality as a force that acts and instead as something that is to be acted upon. This ultimately leads to a total rejection of Freudian thought as it deprives the pleasure principle its status against reality principle while also making ‘happiness’ attainable within civilization. As a side note this kinda reminds one of the common phrase “this is the best it is going to be/get” which in itself is a kind of utopia.

Nicholas Thompson
Nicholas Thompson

Read a fucking Book OP. Specifically, these ones:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Critque_of_the_Gotha_Programme.pdf
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf
If you still dislike labour vouchers after actually reading about them, come back and tell us why.

Daniel Morgan
Daniel Morgan

Just join the realpolitik side of the left, Holla Forums.

Xavier Wood
Xavier Wood

Yes

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