Is Holla Forums for or against Isreal?

anti-israel, not anti-israeli people. stand with palestine.

Lol who do you think will differentiate between bourgeois and proletarian jews when Israel is destroyed? Hamas? Good joke.

hrm

wtf I love Israel now

Reread it

Jews have lived there together with muslims for centuries. They don't need a state.

How do you defend being so antisemitic?
samkriss.com/2015/07/25/why-zionism-is-antisemitism/

maybe don't be ethno-nationalists and display class consciousness? jesus christ.

If your only reason for supporting Israel is that people might be as racist to you as you were to them, then maybe you should've rethought your argument before offering it

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It's also fucking funny how you guys twist action-reaction. Why do you think the Gaza people became radicalized in the first place??

This guy seems to know his shit, too bad he's a lobertarian.
youtube.com/watch?v=Xi8yHnAcZCw
Still best description I've seen of the conflict.

I'm against all nation-states, but I'm not a cultural relativist. Israel is better than an enormous amount of what surrounds it, being a first world western parliamentary republic. I'd easily take it over, say, Islamism, Baathism, monarchism, etc. I also tend to oppose anti-Zionism a bit vehemently, because it's a huge smokescreen for anti-Semites.

Nice false flag tankie

I don't even have to click that link to know it's going to be liberal virtue signaling.

I don't like Israel or the Jews. At least the Jews can be contained in Israel and thus not my problem if it exists.

t. useful idiot

19th century
According to Mark Cohen, Arab antisemitism in the modern world arose relatively recently, in the 19th century, against the backdrop of conflicting Jewish and Arab nationalism, and was imported into the Arab world primarily by nationalistically minded Christian Arabs (and only subsequently was it "Islamised").[108]
The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when an Italian monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city. All were found guilty. The consuls of England, France and Austria as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.[109] Following the Damascus affair, pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa. Pogroms occurred in: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874).[110] There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.[111] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[111]
In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. This is known as the Allahdad incident. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted.[112]
Benny Morris writes that one symbol of Jewish degradation was the phenomenon of stone-throwing at Jews by Muslim children. Morris quotes a 19th-century traveler: "I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mahommedan."[111]
20th century
The massacres of Jews in Muslim countries continued into the 20th century. The Jewish quarter in Fez was almost destroyed by a Muslim mob in 1912.[111] There were Nazi-inspired pogroms in Algeria in the 1930s, and massive attacks on the Jews in Iraq and Libya in the 1940s (see Farhud). Pro-Nazi Muslims slaughtered dozens of Jews in Baghdad in 1941.[111]

Oh yes despite the collapse of the USSR and the subsequent fall in class consciousness, and despite all evidence to the contrary, jews and muslims will suddenly all become enlightened and get along fine.

Learn what fascism actually is before you go around calling everything fascism anarkiddie

Against.

Israel is worse then Apartheid South Africa and imho more of a fascist state then a democracy. Israel is part of the problem with the surrounding region as it upholds reactionary cliques of all sorts in that region and undermines progressive governments when they come to power.

"Bourgeois" and "proletarian" have very plain definitions.

this seems like the kind of mental gymnastics Holla Forums would use to justify supporting Trump and Israel.

No one was asking to choose sides in this dilemma, but why support them at all?
They are literally asking for it by building settlements outside of their borders on top of bulldozed indigenous homes.
Casting over a million refugees into Jordan and refusing them back entry on their lands while as settlemtns are built on top of them are kinda….i dunno
Who cares about their better quality of life and pseudo "democracy" when their morality elusive to only themselves. I doubt anyone here will ever live in Israel.

Who or what are you?

The Holla Forumstards have a correct view for once, anarchists like Bakunin or Proudhon were right about the Jews.

haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.784873
t. actual israeli news source

Funnily enough I knew a black-jewish girl from the US who moved to Israel, she was racist a f against the Palestinians. I pointed out what was going on was apartheid and that what Israel do to Palestine was much worse then say what US police do to blacks and all she could come up with was the US was a fake democracy that couldn't get its own people healthcare, whereas in Israel things are bad the minimum wage is actually lower then in the US but at least they have some ability to restrain the pillage of the elites. I'm paraphrasing liberally, of course.

Well at least you saved yourself the embarrassment of having to defend your retarded ideas.

There is no reason to be pro-Israel except to virtue signal that you like jews

Fascism is the promotion of a militaristic capitalist ethno-state in which everyone is expected to behave in accordance with the best interests of the state under constant threat of violence. It fits Israel to a tee.

Literally has a nazi family owning 25% of its shares. A laughing stock of a newspaper catering only to westerners. I'd be like citing Fox News on why Obama is a socialist.

not even close

Wrong again. Read Trotsky.

wtf I'm a neocon now

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Notice the upside-down reasoning that assumes that the state can control the ruling class. It is identical to nazi ideology.

There's a difference between "We love the Jews and want to protect them from the Muslims!" and "You have to go back, Scholmo."

Holla Forumstards are so incredibly pro-jewish no matter how much they deny it. I think their antisemitism is more like overcompensating than Holla Forums's genuine antisemitism.

The jewish bourgeoisie have used idpol propaganda to fool most of their ethnic brethren into supporting Isreael. It's pretty sad really. Even Bookchin fell for it.

come on man

Its mostly isreals fault for fueling the hatred and flames of war. Just because the British "owned" land on paper for a few years and then sold it to the zionists it doesn't change the fact the land was already inhabited by common people who for the most part just want to live their lives.

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wow this really expanded the brain funhouse

Holla Forumstards admire the Jews because they want to apply Jewish tactics to preserve the white race, apparently. Of course, all the things they think are good about white people will go away if they resort to ethnocentrist parasitism.

Sounds like every other girl mimicking the words of their sugar daddy

This. They want their own ethnostate and are eternally butthurt that "the jews" get one and they don't.

Israel isn't even close to fascist. Go read about what fascism actually is.

Hello there fellow comrades!

Antideustche is a government front.

Of course. The truth about fascism is that, since Hitler has been turned into basically a cartoon in the west and retroactively made the prototypical and ideal example of fascism (despite mussolini being the much better example), nothing short of literally carrying out the exact policies of the third reich with the exact same rhetorics counts as "real fascism". Real fascism no longer exists

what is wrong with the Germans?

What exactly about Israel is not fascist?

They can't be fascist because they're jews

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧The Jews🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 were behind fascism. Wake up, goy.

I'll add on ethnic cleansing and mass population displacement to that list of yours.

This goy gets it.

literally a meme

every country on earth

also literally every country on earth has this

Sweden used to have conscription until quite recently and they're brining it back OMG FASCISM!!!111

wrong en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

LMAO was the British Empire fascist? Jesus Christ. And the Jews were more justified than that anyways. Or are you forgetting history?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

back to your cuckshed
>>>Holla Forums

This is real fascism:

At the moment that the "normal" police and military resources of the bourgeois dictatorship, together with their parliamentary screens, no longer suffice to hold society in a state of equilibrium – the turn of the fascist regime arrives. Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat – all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy.

From fascism the bourgeoisie demands a thorough job; once it has resorted to methods of civil war, it insists on having peace for a period of years. And the fascist agency, by utilizing the petty bourgeoisie as a battering ram, by overwhelming all obstacles in its path, does a thorough job. After fascism is victorious, finance capital directly and immediately gathers into its hands, as in a vise of steel, all the organs and institutions of sovereignty, the executive administrative, and educational powers of the state: the entire state apparatus together with the army, the municipalities, the universities, the schools, the press, the trade unions, and the co-operatives. When a state turns fascist, it does not mean only that the forms and methods of government are changed in accordance the patterns set by Mussolini – the changes in this sphere ultimately play a minor role – but it means first of all for the most part that the workers' organizations are annihilated; that the proletariat is reduced to an amorphous state; and that a system of administration is created which penetrates deeply into the masses and which serves to frustrate the independent crystallization of the proletariat. Therein precisely is the gist of fascism….

What does Nazi Germany a historical event have to do with Isreal a reatime ongoing issue today? Who cares about these Nazi comparison conversation they have been done to death and pollute every thread there is.

They expanded settlements again despite the entire world trough the UN opposing them.
rt.com/news/396612-un-remains-seriously-concerned-about/
Is it truly just the US media that ignores it? Real shit.

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Go back to shilling Holla Forums
The entire world knows about Isreal and soon so will the United States

There is no definition of fascism in that quote. Reddit and Holla Forums may fall for obscurantist bullshit and sophistry, but you are not there right now.

Oh yea, you are the YPG flag "criticism of Israel is anti-semitic" ADL guy
I realise this might be difficult for a zionist to understand but Israel != Jews

Destroying Isreal and a Hamas state solution.

Hamas sucks overall but Bibi unironically deserves to live under their rule

Is that a challenge. Also the SDF is pro-palistine so take that flag off.

Hamas has some problems, but they seem like the only ones who are willing to do what is nessicary in order for Palistianes to have justice.

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He's a false flagging tankie trying to push a "rojava = zionist" narrative. Which is why he's the only one who argues pro Israel (other than obvious retards like Howard) on these threads and never has any good arguments

We_Have_This_Thread_Every_Week_Comrade.jpg

If you read the FAQ you would know that we are anti-Zionist. Zionism is an egregious form of Ethnonationalist Colonialist Imperialism. Anyone who considers themselves a leftist and supports Zionism must be capable of serious cognitive dissonance. I have no problem with Jews as a group, only the Zionists. I could add more, but I don't feel like it, since this is probably a troll post.

Don't really care.
Get upset when people post the meme graph where it pretends the 1947 plan was just sort of peacefully ignored rather than the Arabs going to war an getting BTFO.

For faintly "bourgeoisie-political-simplicity" reasons I'm inclined to support Israel existing just because lol right of conquest. The alternative is accepting Indians have a right to America and Maori have a right to NZ and so on. (Actually I'm probably more vehemently white-Kiwi than caring about Israel. Fuck your ancestors civilisation needs an airport.) But even this is highly variable. IF I was actually an NZer I might be pro-Maori just because maybe the anti-Maori guys are cunts. Heuristics are weird like that.

I hope the whole Israel thing really is a convoluted heuristic because it's an insanely tedious topic if you want to talk about anything other than military strategy. 6 day war and Yom Kippur war were cool, just for being actual proper territorial-invasion wars with modern hardware. (Even if they ruined it by having it in A FUCKING DESERT.)

Don't mind Jews, it's Labour Friends of Israel that's the problem. Too good a heuristic for finding Blairites.

Me I guess.

Despite being highly militarised it would seem plausible to argue that they don't have the militaristic cult features of fascism, nor do they have the supreme loyalty to the state. (Perhaps closer to racial loyalty leading to nazi analogies, but even then Mussolini used to be coherent on that: Race is a meme, love the state. Presumably Israelis would be expected to drop loyalty to the state if it ran counter to Jewish interests more widely, subverting this element.)

Heh you reminded me of this coot
youtube.com/watch?v=iPVKSiTmU8s

Reminder Ho Chi Min who was friendly with many European and Jewish communists offered to support and provide the Jews a place to live, but his close friend David Ben Gurion the would be founder of Israel and first Israeli President refused it for "his peoples" desire and instistence of a Jewish ethno state on top of the bones of the vast native Palestinian majority still living there.

The difference between Isreal/Palistine and the Native Americans is that the Native Americans/Maori were mostly killed by disease. Israel is purposely ethically cleansing Palistianes. And yes the Arabs didn’t except the 1957 peace plan because if someone walked in and took your house killed you family and offers you your backyard as a peace plan you wouldn’t except it.

Fuck off.

Fucking Awesome Vermonters.

Yeah, but when I got BTFO defending my property I wouldn't then go "Well why don't we just accept the 1947 plan like you wanted haha?"
I probably would. I'm a sight to behold when trying to negotiate from a position of weakness.

Maori are more of a problem because there's basically two interpretations of the treaty between British and Maori, and iirc for international law purposes the Maori one is used. (i.e. the most favourable to them, creating a big sort of racial interest group rather than whatever is most conductive to a universalist social-democratic welfare state.) But as I say, not even a kiwi so don't know why I care.

Then don't post
Seems you do get mad when its gets brought up. Previously Ottoman land that was d&ced by the British was occupied and sold on paper. Those nations that all attacked were all artificial creations of France and Britain just like Isreal, only Isreal did not exist physically and cultrally until the regions original inhabitants were forcefully displaced by the zionists.
No one cares if Jews lived there a thousand years ago because of what a fairy tail book mentions. The Canaanites were there first before any group anyway.

Even pro war libs regularly categorize these actions as unjustified. If your best defense is "but this thing happened a few hundred years ago when slavery is ok", then maybe your argument isn't actually that great.

1946, 1948, and 1967, along with a host of other skirmishes predicated on these conflicts, were all started by Israel despite a host of cover ups and false flags revealed since then to shift the blame. Everyone who tries to play that Israel is innocent even outside of the day to day apartheid shit is either a fool or a liar.

OPEN BORDERS FOR ISRAEL

One of the only good memes Holla Forums has ever produced.

Uncle Ho (like others of the Maoist ideological geneology) was a nationalist first, anti-imperialist second and a socialist third. This is why we get stupid shit like the Sino-Vietnamese war, and why it is so easy for them to reform into capitalism, like in China, VN and Lao.
He became a socialist in France because socialism were the only anti-imperialist political movement.

On the actual topic of the thread - if there is ever going to be a diplomatic solution, the ball is in Israel's court. They are the ones with the influence and power. Offering 1967 borders would be a good start.
It is however extremely unlikely to happen, as the status quo benefits the ethno-religious nationalists of both sides in the conflict. Keeping Hamas as the only game in town is very useful for the Israeli (far) right of the Bibis and Liebermanns - and Israeli society is lurching to the right as a reaction. Not even perpetual corruption scandals can sink the ship anymore, which is a sign of the degradation of Israeli civil society.

Opinions were sought.
I get mad when history is misrepresented, as though it was Israel who rejected the 1947 plan. Conversely if the Arabs had won I don't believe I'd really care for the authority of the UN. You can say the UN plan was illegitimate and so on, but there's that one specific image that leaves it to implication that it was Israel that rejected 1947.

It's less that my argument is that it's okay, and more that opening that can of worms is too much effort. I mean, even if I do conclude Israel shouldn't exist - it's gonna exist.
They still won. I mean, nobody demands we restore the Hittite empire. It's not that Israel is innocent it's that they won by the standards of any other conqueror.
(From a sort of Liberal perspective I've always liked some kind of one state solution where ethnic differences are put aside due to economic development, but that takes some insane levels of wishful thinking from someone who knows enough about Northern Ireland to know that Sectarianism is a hell of a drug.)

But to some degree I must note I'm regurgitating older opinions. I haven't entirely reappraised situations to remove the last traces of a sort of liberal imperialism that existed before the full onset of apathy outside selective issues, so don't draw the vaguely imperialist implications too far. (They are present but mild. In particular the whole apartheid thing is something I'd probably be more against if I cared beyond being interested in modern warfare. (The difference between right to land by conquest, and obligations to treat the citizens of conquered land as equal to native citizens and so on. It's only with privileging status one way or the other that problems arise.)

Ridiculous standards and comparison. I don't concern myself with what most people want or think (or else I'd be a liberal), and if the Hittite empire was an underclassed group that was disenfranchised a handful of decades ago people wouldn't be indifferent about them either. The framing of the whole situation as "just another clash of empires" is incredibly disingenuous anyway and reflects nothing of either the current or past situations of the occupied peoples there.

If you’re going to play empire that’s fine, but that also means that any violence the opposition o you uses is also justified because as you said. Israel is an empire. And empires don’t have national sovereignty.

You misspelled "Jerusalem Post", you insufferable faggot.

"Lets make a decision upon a indigenous group of people completely disenfranchised and fractured from recent meddling by imperialists where we uproot their homes demolishing them to make way for racial jewish only settlements…..surely it will all work out and its their fault if they are not happy with their purchase"

I mean like I say, "Keep Israel, Ditch apartheid" is the only one that doesn't risk a "Give the Indians America" precedent which is the main concern.
(Both are ridiculous hypotheticals, but it's worth sort of vaguely keeping in mind.)
The topic is a bit of a discussionary black hole.

This one seems a bit dubious, but sure. If some kind of Arab campaign took over the governance of Israel then yeah. Jews lost, whoops. It's not really a position of sympathy so much as apathy except for the principle of leaving certain ghosts of the past in the past.

No idea where you inferred that from.
(Though it remains the practical case that if you declare war rather than accept an imperialist fait-accompli, then get BTFO, you can't then pretend that you were willing to accept the fait-accompli after all and blame the imperialists for overstepping it. The act of declaring war was the one to take it off the table.)

Is there any solution that doesn't involve "keep israel" in some form? If the only thing it takes to be "pro Israel" is not literally calling for it to be wiped off the map then I guess there are a ton more zionists around than I thought.

The common citizen doesn't partake in warfare or government so by what morality is it justified to displace them like Israel does?
The rights of human beings supersede Isreal.

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It stinks.

STOP BOYCOTTING THE MOST LIBERAL SETTLER-COLONIAL QUASI-APARTHEID """"DEMOCRACY"""" IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT PRODUCES LITERAL PROPAGANDA AND HARASSES AND THREATENS ITS CRITICS IN """"SELF-DEFENSE""""

What do you mean by this?

The most socially-progressive bourgeoisie

That's actually Poland, they choose to be modest when they can be great. I don't know where you got that idea.

Yeah it sucks that he's a lolbert since he knows so much about the conflict and the region. Do we know anyone socialist who knows enough about Palestine and the middle east at large to debate him and set him straight? He's basically open to debate whoever but there's no way he'd respect someone who didn't understand the conflict

Has to be a tankie. Maybe Jason will do it which would be hilarious but there's not way he'd convince him of anything

are you polish or did suddenly "the israel of europe" become a meme abroad?

I'm pretty sure there's a couple anti-deutsch posters (going by the amount of triggered tankies you see autisticly screeching for mods to protect their anti-jew safe space, it has to be more than one) and there's a number of communalists and bookchin hacks who are mildly pro-Israel (because we understand that anti-zionism is often a meme pushed by anti-semites and Arab imperialists who want to replace Israel with something worse).

That basically is the difference between anti-semites who use anti-zionism as a cover for their bullshit, and coherent anti-zionists who oppose all nationalisms. Unfortunately, most "anti-zionists" easily fit into the first category. It's possible to take a stance that is against all nationalisms that makes sense, because it means that you're against baathism, Islamism, and other forms of nationalism that dominate the region. But it's my experience that most "leftists" aren't like this- they are "anti-zionist" but give a pass to far worse forces in the region, out of some kind of misplaced knee-jerk "anti-imperialism" that gives special consideration against Jews because they're seen as being Western.

The entire reason Israel basically exists is the pogroms and purges carried out by the dominant Arabs against Jews over the past couple centuries. The majority of Jews in Israel are from other parts of the former Ottoman Empire, why the hell do you think they ended up in Israel in the first place? It wasn't entirely voluntary.

No, it's not. It's the self-determination movement of Jews. Some of the very hard-right might sortof fit that narrative, but there's a strong history of socialist and leftist zionism, the Kibbutz movement in particular is a good example of this. If you want "ethnonationalist colonialist imperialism" in the middle east, you have baathism.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern. They're only there because they were kicked out of their own houses and communities themselves.

tl;dr:

The reason why quite a few leftists tend to lean towards Israel is simply that we understand that one random nation state isn't the issue, and that if Israel stopped existing overnight it wouldn't change anything for the better and would only empower the dominant imperialist forces in the region while removing a semblance of self-determination from an oppressed people. Until such a time as we don't have to worry about Jews being massacred and wiped out, then Israel existing is better than the alternative. If you want people to stop supporting Israel, you need to remove the conditions that mean Israel has to exist in the first place. The absolute insane levels of historical revisionism that try to isolate Israel and present it as some kind of special unique case that needs to be destroyed as soon as possible at all costs, without considering building any kind of socialist or communalist alternative, basically just reinforces the fact that Israel needs to be given critical support and defended until such a time that anti-semitism isn't a problem. It's really that simple- if you think Israel shouldn't exist, you have to remove the conditions that necessitate it existing, rather than throwing tantrums about how much you hate Jews.

Heh. Easy decision, fuck Israel lmaoooo

Get fucked Zionist trash

It is precisely because Israel is seen as a liberal state very much like the Europeans and America. That is why things like the settlement programme are so outrageous. It is also seen as something that can be influenced through 'global opinion' because it has a civil society and a functional (in the liberal sense) representative democracy.

Yes, but would it perhaps be possible for Israel to exist without overtly and constantly fucking over the Palestinians or is that just too much to ask? Is the settlement programme necessary for the existence of Israel?

Israel's existence? Yes.
Detestable actions of the Israeli state? No.
Conflating these two is pure ADL propaganda.

No Israel exists because western jewish Zionists and anglo imperialists wanted it to exist.

"Everyone who disagrees with Israel is either a Nazi or a Muslim"
Nothing of value to get worked up over then
Ending Zionist imperialism, open borders for isreal
The entire planet through the United Nation condemns Israel with the sole hyper power exception of the United States. Its more than sane.
Now you are just using words you don't understand

A reminder that back in 2008 JIDF attempting to subvert and control opinion created the cancer that is Holla Forums today.
Nevar forgaet

its almost as if Holla Forums with its antisemitism while at the same time promoting pro zionist politics is in the interest of the JIDF
really makes you think

Well, I'm edging dangerously close to a phased introduction of a single state solution there.

That in aggregate they were displaced 1-2 generations ago. Genetic right to homeland is always a bit dodgy. (The same is technically true of Israel, but they can also just be treated as vanilla colonists.)
(I mean, they still have a right not to be treated like shit.)

I mean if you just want a giant refugee camp to keep the Jewish people safe, it would've been much easier to give the Jews one of the flyover states and have it declare independence rather than do the whole return home thing.

Explain to me how this couldn't justify the reestablishment of the crusader states. I'm not going to answer the rest of your drivel, it's full of insults and strawmen (muh tankies, muh antisemitism) and uses classical ethno-nationalist rethoric (muh oppressed group). If you seriously wonder why Arabs become nationalistic when you outright kill them all the time and chain them up in a ghetto country you should read Lenins writings about nations right to self-determination.

Jews are most muh privileged minority that exists on the planet faggot and have been living in the Levant for centuries peacefully, so did the Christians there. What about the Roma and Sinti? They got shoa'ed as well. Why don't they get a nuclear armed imperialist ethno-state? Oh wait, they don't have money. Go fuck yourself.

Fuck me dead

Fuck gypsies, they deserve to fucking die.
It's a culture of uneducated thieves.

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Not very surprising considering that Kurds really love the ethnic oppression when it's them doing it and are willing to extend this by allying with Israel

Fuck Kurds.

I actually do get what you're getting at. Israel's existence needs to be defended, but we shouldn't support Israel's actions in the West Bank, etc. The problem is that some authoritarian leftists (tankies lol) often do the exact opposite- they come from a position that is first and foremost one of anti-semitic whining about how Israel must be destroyed as soon as possible and at all costs, and just use Israel's shitty foreign policy in the West Bank as evidence the Jews need to be wiped out. They have no analysis of the situation outside of "Jews = Bad / Arabs = Good" and if there's a class element it almost always takes a backseat to promoting the interests of the traditionally imperialist and dominant forces in the region, specifically Arab landowners, oil barons, and politicians, instead of taking an approach that presents potential outcomes based on a confederal, multi-ethnic society in which every municipality has self-determination. The way so many tankies get very upset at the mere idea of this idea (an idea that, to be honest, I'm just paraphrasing from Bookchin and Ocalan) proves, to me at least, that their interests are not in talking about Israel's misadventures in the West Bank and how to resolve that problem, insofar as they are trying to express their ingrained racist attitudes against Jews in a way that won't have people calling them out and bitching at them about it. Really, fixing the plight of the Palestinians isn't their primary objective, their primary objective is that they think Israel needs to be wiped out immediately at all costs, and they don't care about what comes next. It's not safe to complain about Jews, so if they just claim they're all ethno-nationalist colonialist white supremacists instead…

Nah, see, pathetic bleating about how wonderful and peaceful the middle east was, full of puppies and rainbows, until the jews got their own country, as if that's the reason things are messed up, basically shows that you have no bloody idea what the hell you're talking about.

Remember: tankies don't use "imperialism" the way everyone else does, they have their own special snowflake definition that redefines it to only apply to things "western" states do. Which is a stupid meme. The history of Ottoman and Arab imperialism in the region has by pretty much every measure been far more of a disaster for the Middle East than Zionism ever has been. The Syrian Civil War, a conflict that eventuated primarily from repression from Baathist forces with a strong history of repressing minority populations such as Druze and Kurds has killed something like 25 times the amount of people the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict has in the past half a century, but relatively few people take to the streets to complain about that.

I dont think there are many antigermans around here, the screeching you see is mainly because the tankies are so rabid and triggered easily that even the constantly reposted Bookchin article which is really mild and essentially says that capitalism is the middle easts real problem and not the jews gets them completely mad. I even get attacked for not caring about Palistine/Israel and not thinking that the Jews are behind everything in the middle east.

You can see by the response here that they dont even get the most basic arguments they rather returgiate vulgar anti imperialism because its easier than being an actual Marxist.

Wasn't bookchin an imperialist zionist shill?

If you're talking about that older piece then he recanted. This specific YPG poster is just particularly shilly

That doesn’t Justify the Israeli Genocide against Palistianes.

You don't argue in good faith. You are trying to smear everybody as an antisemite who calls out Israel for the apartheid state it is. Israel displaced the people living in the Levante and erected a ethno-nationalist imperialist state on top of it, while undermining every progressive force in the Middle East. What happened before doesn't fucking matter, and I couldn't give less of a shit about your spooks about God's chosen people or whatever.

Also instead off wining about anti-semitism you should look at why recently int’s had a massive rebirth once the 1950’s. The reason is Isreal.

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fuck off Holla Forumsyp

stop using that word

Not a Holla Forumsyp. I just recognize the Jews' muh privileged position in society which makes Israeli imperialism possible. A lot of people here seem to turn a blind eye from the issue and let zionist shills like get off scot-free.

Also, again:
Please fucking explain. Are you referring to the Arab conquest in the 7th century?
"Tankies", as in Leninists, were the first ones who came up with a coherent definition in the first place, you pathetic faggot. This whole "anti-anti-imperialism" stance which has been pushed by ultraleftists has become a parody of itself, to the point where everybody who points at exploitation by "white" countries gets smeared as some IdPol SJW tankie Third Worldist who just loves brown people. No faggot, we actually have an materialist definition of imperialism, you just don't apply it to Israel or whatever the US does in Syria. Israel constituted itself as an imperialist state, this isn't restricted to the West Bank (or the ongoing quasi-genocide in Gaza which you conveniently always leave out), the very foundation of such an invading ethno-state is imperialist, the same way the US was always imperialist against first nations, even when they fought their War of Independence.

you are just digging yourselve in deeper faggot

So fucking what? There a literal fences and walls keeping Palestinians locked inside a ghetto on a nation-wide scale.
Literally the same as "I have black friends"

You don't have to be from Holla Forums to recognize that the whole Holocaust thing has turned into a gigantic scam with ridiculous termini technici like "antisemtism", which by itself implies that racism against people of Jewish heritage is somehow qualitatively worse than racism against other groups.

quasi is right

Yes, but there like Arab Uncle Toms. The TRUE Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank live like shit. Because Israel keeps on demolishing Arab villages and building Israeli settlements ontop of them.

I'm against everything but communism, so I would have to listen to venerable comrade Stalin and say: they are both worse. Palestine is not just another bourgeois State, but is represented almost only Hamas, a reactionary organization that coopts all truly internationalist working class movements there, while Israel is the more "progressive" bourgeois State that represents nothing but a "nicer" capitalism.

thecharnelhouse.org/2016/04/29/letter-on-anti-zionism/

When people are oppressed they push back hard.

If you like historical revisionism so much you should better go on Holla Forums and whine about hurrdurr mudslimes. Why do you think the people in Gaza became radicalized in the first place? Are you even aware that many organizations fighting for Palestinian liberation have been leftist in character? All of them, and not only the militant ones, have been thrown under the bus by Israel, or were even physically liquidated. Settlement never stopped, people were still treated like cattle in Gaza, and then, surprise surprise, they vote for a militant islamist factions? I wonder why!! You sound interchangeable to a Neocon and literal Kissinger talking points: Bomb the shit out of people, and then wonder why they become radicalized.

Bust Isreal is an Imperialist puppet. It’s economy helps other imperialist countries crush worker moments in there home state. Also Isreal is used as a giant military base for the US to crush worker moments throughout the middle east.

You dont have to be a genious or a zionist to see the level of obsession you people have with jews is retarded and outsized(especially when you post pics like )
. When you cant even see the that antisemitism is not just another racism and an integral part of fascism and seeing the industrial nature of the holocaust as just some random accurance in history that tells us nothing about capitalist society and fascism then you are retarded. Anti imperialist activism is even more useless than most other activism, so you hitch a ride with islamists, racists, antisemites, baathists to advocate for the destruction of a nation accepting the inevitable ethnic cleansing that would accompany it just so you can feel relevant again. Israel/Palistine is not the new Vietnam faggot.

We should take the sides of the civilian workers of both sides, and advocate for a non nation state solution, or atleast a peaceful resolution. And that means that if we "support" anyone it would be the Israeli left(which is weak in a good part because of the hostility Israel faces) and the palistinian people that stand against islamism.

Do you think Palestine wouldn't be if it were the big dog around there? Do you think it would be fair to assume to Palestine would now be getting the US funding rather than Israël and dance to the US's tune? Imperialism is not first a doing, but a being, which is always entirely conditional on a bourgeois entity's standing vis a vis other bourgeois entities. This vulgaristic side-taking with the smaller bad guy leads to fucking circular politics that never address the root point in any whatsoever, and cannot hope to be the basis for seriously addressing things either. If on an international scale the poverty of anti-imperialism is shown this way, on a national level the poverty of the similar stance in anti-monopolism is shown too: do you "critically support" Bob's Burgers against Burger KKKing's acts of aggression too, or do you realize that this is an utterly meaningless position that totally ignores the class character of the situation?

You can't base the opinions of the entire board on a couple of posters, or even an entire thread. For all you know those tankie posts are false flagging Holla Forumsyps

But the beautiful thing is that I have, and fucking agree. Nation's rights to self-determination is meaningful, but just like Lenin it's only meaningful if said nation has actual proletarian character. Did Lenin call for an end to the first world war because he supported the Tsar, or because he saw that the conflict was not a war of the classes but a war of the empires? If Hamas or whatever it would be called in Palestine actually presented itself in a way that stands for something beyond just a bourgeois, Palestinian state (let's give credit where credit is due and congratulate Hamas on wanting more, namely the ethnic cleansing of Jews, just like Israel wants more than just the land called Palestine but also the death of all those who resist them).

Doublethink much?

Imperialism fuck with the normal cycle of capitalism and in order for class conscience to rise in Palestine Israel must be defeated first and the Palistianes must have national liberation.

In the other post I told you that there's real proletarian internationalism already there in Palestine, but it gets hijacked by Hamas or fucking killed (if they're against both us and Israel, they're lying and haram!).

This is also again repeating the circular position on war, conflict and imperialism under capitalism, and it's fucking laughable to think that we'll ever have a fucking end to this without actually having a real movement that wants to transcend beyond all of this internally capitalistic evil known as imperialism.

Israelian lobbies have huge influence over politics and media in the US, which is the leading western country. That's not a conspiracy theory. The ties that Israel and Saudi-Arabia entertain underhand, the recicorpal Israelian influence over Neocons, etc. all instruments of imperialism, and have acted as such in the past. This can hardly be understated, and to shut down leftists who adress this as being anti-semitic is quite frankly disgusting. Also, this is an imageboard. Handle the banter and the open discussion, we don't need some IDF shill lecturing us about being PC about Jews. You can't not seriously believe that me or comrade T-34 above are unironic antisemites, you know it's a smear, and you utilize it.
Grow the fuck up. There isn't any new Holocaust in the making, and there were plenty of other atrocious genocides that have the potential to rival the Holocaust, stop trying to imply that history has singularities.
So far Israel has done the ethnic cleansing. You are speculating that only Israel as a ethno-state can prevent another Holocaust, which is an ridiculous statement looking at the Christian and Jewish history in the Levant. Jews also live as a minorities in plenty of states which entertain a form of Arab nationalism, such as Syria, which constitionally guarantees minority rights, which is even a better position than minorities would have under the Muslim Dschizya. Although their situation has been getting worse lately - because of the Israel backed FSA moderate islamists. What a fucking irony.
Infantile. The demands of the left should be no less the dismantlement of Israel as an apartheid state, the removal of Jewish imagery from its symbols and institutions, the removal of imperialist settler and amendments for ethnically displaced Palestinian, and the creation of a secular state that doesn't adhere to either ethnicity, but represents the people that live on the soil of the Levant.

...

And this goes for everyone ITT and I emphasize it, the position our comrade is attacking (that only Israël can solve this) is rightfully being outed as equally and completely retarded. Anti-Germanism, which is broadly where this position comes from, is hysterical retardation that whether consciously or not is Zionistic and fully ahistorical. Read this: thecharnelhouse.org/2015/03/05/the-anti-german-ideology-towards-a-critique-of-anti-german-communism/.

Just kill yourself

I would argue that Žižek makes the correct point when he states that Zionism and Antisemitism are not mutually exclusive, in fact, they have been making deals with each other in the past, and are both ideologically compatible. The true tragedy of the Holocaust is when we are forced to witness how former prisoners of Auschwitz are racist against Palestinians - the liberal worldview collapses when that happens.

Isn't it obvious? Both rely on Jewish exceptionalism, and both want the Jews to 'go where they belong'. The worse the conditions of the diaspora, the more incentive for them to pack their bags and take the Zion option, thus a single-minded zionist supports the abuse of the Jewish diaspora.

Someone post that Finkelstein crocodile tears webm.

Gods, your Galil posting triggers me to no end
MAKE IT STOP

It's more the neocons man, the Israeli lobby is consider the most powerful lobby in our government and enjoys strong bipartisan support. See the latest anti-boycott bill as further evidence. Zionists such as Haim Saban is a large Dem supporter, as another example

Yep, Kriss makes basically that same point here
samkriss.com/2015/07/25/why-zionism-is-antisemitism/

That's what he's in for, he's one of the more elaborate trolls we have on this board. In another Germany thread he has been spamming Anti-German stickers, he knows that IDF furries trigger people, and he deliberately chooses the YPG flag. If he's really so concerned about antisemtism he shouldn't make posts that pretty much make you an antisemite.

They had it coming.

Nah, but you do

If Jews were to occupy the majority of my country including where I live. Force me, my family, my friend out of the land we’ve been living in for lot’s of generations. Put us in a very small and overcrowded space with poor living conditions. Then a radical fundamentalist christian group promised to retake our land no matter the cost I’d support that group to.

its a false flag you idiot its easy
im a maoist cause dead chinese peasants make me cum, my sexual fantasies include being beaten to death by red gaurds in self critism session

but he didn't that eassy was

don't forget the the ethic cleansing, of the montanagards,

No, he is an unironic Zionist. It's not a false flag. He's been posting in every thread about Israel and Palestine

yeah no, those immigrants need to go back to america

Wo lebst du? Triff mich damit ich deinen Schädel einschlagen kann.

We don't want them, the JewSA already has enough of the Chosen running everything.

Altschauerberg 8 in 91448 Emskirchen

my nigga

I too sometimes dream of NKVD mistress torturing me for being a filthy kulak

Tbh they are pretty hot

am i the only person who can't find something sexually appealing at all if it's making a commodity part of the focus of the image. like, guns, cars, branded consumer electronics, soda cans, it's gone. christ i bet if you stick an IKEA logo on a bed it's probably gone.

tbf Furries+Israel is funny.
me walking through Gaza on the left.

Chamber for you

This. Cat girls > jewish dog girls (or whatever that stupid gun is supposed to be.)

Fuck two states. One Palistianen state. #BuildTheTunnels

...

And, well, then there's Elf-Stirner, who merely trough the strength of their own ego manages to intimidate even communist catgirl-guns to leak cosmoline into their pantsu's.
But yeah, I agree. That poster should definitely stop using the cute and internationally loved and used derivate of an AK-derivate.
TL note: The Galil is based on the Finnish Rk62, which in turn was developed off the AK-47

I'm an Israeli Jew and even served in the IDF and i will glady watch this state being erased.

I don't even care by whom anymore.

Well, it's not your fault they have conscription. Did you take the desk job or go waving boomsticks around?

...

Funny thing is that I bet that Kriss in his teens probably accused Zizek of anti-semitism for it LMAO.

I had a desk job in the intelligence corps. I've seen the behind the scenes of the shit we pull and will pull.
everything Israel does is calculated. nothing comes by surprise and nothing that happens is a shock.

What's the deal with Israel encouraging the EU to close its borders? Are they trying to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment as a pretext for a Palestinian genocide?

I recommend this book if anyone hasn't read it already.

Israel likes bashing the EU when it suits them/when they criticize Israel, but if they do anything like us / that we like we will gloat about it to no end. the EU closing it's borders and adopting anti-muslim policy gives Bibi and his club extra legitimacy points. (Cause if the great and progressive EU does it, of course we should take the same steps)

I figured as much, that's how the Jews operate after all.

#OpenBoardersForIsreal

It's rather hilarious that the Jews are being attacked by their imported Muslim pets, but the Jews weren't really known for being forward-thinking.

vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres6/BAZO.pdf
Everyone ITT should read this book on Nazi-Zionist collaboration. Unfortunately, I can only find it hosted on vho but it was written by Jewish socialists from Australia and is very systematic using almost exclusively Zionist sources to prove the treachery of the Zionists themselves.

Fuck off with this shit.

Israel is a right-wing hellhole even worse than my own country (US). I will never support authoritarian shitholes.

A huge portion of american jews are liberal or outright leftist. I don't have any problems with them and I don't associate Israel with them at all.

A whole lot of id-pol is Jewish in origin.

Yeah that's what I thought faggot. Tell us more about how the left are "the real racists" or whatever other bullshit you've been pushing upthread

Was Kriss ever not a leftist? He's still pretty young even now

I'm not arguing anything, calm down Schlomo.

Thread Theme
youtube.com/watch?v=UdmLVZR42CY&t=387s

No shit

fascinating

I don't see any realist solution else than a common state. Let's call it Canaan, by default.
Resurrecting Palestine as a whole implies either a removal of nearly all Israelis, which looks pretty difficult, or their demographical collapse, which would take centuries.
Two sovereign states leads to an inextricable borders problem, unless they are so deeply tied that it makes no sense to have two states rather than one.

If you have one state the Jews will just find a way to exterminate the Palestinians and get away with it, then keep expanding anyway.

If that was the case they wouldn't expend so much energy on avoiding a single state. They know that a single state erases the "jewish nature" of their state so they're desperate to avoid that.

Wouldn't the goal be to expel or exterminate the Palestinians and then have one state? Two-states would be a compromise, and one state with both peoples would be a worst-case scenario for the Jews, no?

This.
Each year, there are more zionists standing against the idea of a single multi-ethnic state. That's for a reason.

Pretty much nailed it. I thought we were advocating for a single multi-ethnic state but you're correct that they would prefer to push Palestinians into the sea and then maintain a single ethnostate

Two states is a liberal meme. Entirely untenable and everybody on either side knows it

Yeah, but it doesn't really matter what you advocate for, the Jews will just exterminate the Palestinians and nothing will come of it because they will be protected by the JewSA.

It is the present mindset of the zionists (you understand the difference between an ethnic affiliation and a political one, do you …?)
It seems obvious that the defeat of zionism is the first condition to any kind of progress in this area.

The more the center-left (labour) in Israel is getting wrecked, the more leftists are joining are joining joint Jewish-Palestinian organizations. the next big politicial shift in Israel will be the rise of civil Jewish-Palestinian solidarity and cooperation. There are already plenty of groups and they are gaining strength by the day. (like Taayush, Standing Together, Combatants for Peace)
also there's a chance that the EU countries are gonna stray a little from the US sphere of influence because of trump and disobey the US demands and maybe impose some real, impactful sanctions on Israel. Unfortunately the best case scenario to come out of all this is a two-state solution.

Until you mention isreals illegal settlements and speak negatively of neocon military adventures in the middle east.

Yes there’s more pro cooperation ideology inside Isreal but there’s also more ethno-nationalism and extremism inside Isreal as well. What we’re seeing in Isreal is what we’re seeing through the west. A collapse of the center.

zionist imperialism has destabilized such a vibrant diverse area.

It is a fucking Capitalist pigdom hellbent on destroying proud poc.

agreed all jews support dumfphs imperialist wars in syria and pootin so they are not for the revolution.

holy fuck remove the ypg flag or add an israel flag

Zionism = bad
religion = bad

...

Bookchin pretty much refutes Lenin onwards. His views on Israel aren't well publicised, and as far as I know they don't extend beyond editorials in newspapers and the like in which he argues that the solution to the conflict is the development of a Swiss-like confederacy of different minorities in the region, and that if the Jews and Israel magically disappeared from the region it isn't going to make anything any better for the vast majority of people suffering under the tyranny of Arab politicians, land-owners, oil barons, and fanatical clerics. Ocalan in turn basically says the same thing, taking it further to point out that there are some sectors of civil Israeli society that should be defended and expanded upon in order to be more inclusive of Arabs, and that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is for most Arab governments not so much about defending various depradations suffered by Palestinians, but rather a useful smokescreen that can be trotted out every time they want to cover up national problems or pogroms against minorities like Kurds.

There's no genocide, or apartheid, in Israel. Israel's actions in the West Bank are pretty shitty, but it's a stretch to claim it's either of those things given the strong legal protections afforded to minority groups within Israel, like the Circassians or Druze.

The anti-semitism was taking place well before Israel existed. There are numerous examples of Jews being screwed over and fucked with prior to Israel existing in the region: Israel's existence probably has contributed to anti-semitism though, but not in the way you're implying, it's because various shitty politicians in surrounding countries can use Israel as a way of deflecting discontent from within their own populace.

This is how you complain about Israel without coming across as a Holla Forumsyp who just has a hard on for hating Jews.

A lot of leftists are openly hostile to leftism in Israel, if that leftism involves a two-state solution or even supporting Israel's right to exist in the first place. I am not really sure why that is, but I feel as if it's a combination of anti-semitism that reinterprets Jews as "white" coupled with a reactionary distaste for any country allied with America and the West. Thoughts?

wts one (1) slightly used Galil daki

I'm not actually the same person. Galil sheckelposting is all me tho.

How is a two state solution not a good outcome? Are you that deranged that you think self-determination for both Jews/non-Jewish minorities in one area *and* self-determination for Arabs in another in which they leave each other the hell alone, is somehow a bad idea or not an improvement on the current situation?

I don't hate jews for being jewish….but when the revolution comes a lot of jews will be hung or shot.

They make up a good amount of bankers, investors, capitalism promoters, etc.

Now if there's a Jewish prole I highly encourage them to join us in revolution but like many minorites they are highly tribalist and could possibly identify more with bourgeoisie Jews instead of fellow proles

No, Kriss is a leftist.

The joke is that for a few years now, Kriss has made it his life mission to deride Zizek as a "reactionary", "white muh privileged old man", et cetera after he tried to respond to a Zizek article on the refugee crisis and beautifully got BTFO in a back and forth.

The first article, by Zizek: inthesetimes.com/article/18385/slavoj-zizek-european-refugee-crisis-and-global-capitalism
Kriss' first response: inthesetimes.com/article/18615/in-defense-of-fantasy-a-response-to-slavoj-zizek
Zizek again: inthesetimes.com/article/18605/breaking-the-taboos-in-the-wake-of-paris-attacks-the-left-must-embrace-its
Kriss, now relegated to publishing on his blog: samkriss.com/2015/09/11/building-norway-a-critique-of-slavoj-zizek/
Zizek's last and most concise response: inthesetimes.com/article/18722/Slavoj-Zizek-on-Syria-refugees-Eurocentrism-Western-Values-Lacan-Islam
Kriss, now just making ad homs and writing like the Twitter call-out culturite he truly is: samkriss.com/2015/11/17/in-defence-of-fantasy-a-further-response-to-slavoj-zizek/

I mentioned that Kriss shares almost the same position as Zizek on many things in spite of this. In fact, he almost the entirely same theoretical ground Zizek innovated with: post-Hegelian, Marxist, Lacanian psychoanalyst. A look at other publishings by Kriss and his Twitter activity reveals that.

Gee i wonder who would bumplock a thread like this

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧THEM🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

There's no question that Holla Forums is anti-Israel. OP, if you want to discuss it, make a thread on the assumption that Holla Forums is anti-Israel, instead of this trollbait.

Its a simple conversation starter, sorry my format was inadequate. I don't want to exclude people.
Seems pretty mixed imo. Nonetheless the conversations are more mature then other boards

Anyone who has been here a while knows that the BO is an immature salty tankie with a hardon for hating jews, among other things. Every time people start having in-depth discussions about things like Israel they get buttmad and start whining about muh chosen people muh imperialism. This is not a new thing. There was probably more theory in this post than half the front page, going by all the posts that seem to have been baleeted.