Gift Economy Cryptoledger, better than labor vouchers

Asher Price
Asher Price

Online Gift Economy, GoFundMe 2.0, better than labor vouchers

A distributed, decentralized ledger of NEEDs and OFFERs which can be submitted any time to people registered in the network.
OFFERs submitted are randomly and automatically paired with NEEDs, and visa versa
some NEEDs are hardcoded into the software as necessary, and unfilled NECESSARY NEEDs (food etc) slows down the network, so that UNECESSARY NEED requests and some NECESSARY NEED requests don't get filled until *all* NECESSARY NEED requests are filled.
the network is not anonymous, rigorous identity verification is needed, because sock accounts can't be allowed
Users can see the entire fulfilled NEED history of users to determine whether they should accept a pairing. This keeps those trying to abuse the network from having needs fulfilled without a centralized moderation team
disingenious NEEDs and OFFERs and curbed by the option of giving a party a disapproval rating at the end of the transaction that was supposed to occur. A user that racks up enough disapproval is banned from the NECESSARY NEED subnetwork for a certain amount of time and must gather enough approved transactions in a containment network to be allowed back in
the incentive structure is that fulfilling *all* NECESSARY NEEDs is what keeps the gift economy from functioning at all or not

Will pay developers for this. It is similar to how cryptocurrency works, and will probably use DAG consensus.

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-win6BIIpQ&t=537s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-win6BIIpQ
Easton James
Easton James

Sounds more similar to a secret santa round robin. The thing isn't finished until everyone gets a gift.

Joshua Morris
Joshua Morris

Is this not for profit, where is there currency involved?

Josiah Foster
Josiah Foster

better than labor vouchers
Does it allow for coordination and planning of a complicated economic system using statistics on need and supply/resources and their costs?

Christopher Hall
Christopher Hall

No currency involved.

Benjamin Myers
Benjamin Myers

Need is determined by whether or not a user has had a necessary need fulfilled in a round. It's similar to rationing except without a central authority. With labor vouchers, you can start a side economy with the labor vouchers and needs can go unmet. In this system, the network doesn't function until *all* reputable users needs are attempted to be met.
And the public display of need history prevents those who want to submit needs just to collect money to use in the outside market economy.

It is it's own economy, and it's based on a few simple rules.

Bentley Brooks
Bentley Brooks

INTERNET OF THINGS CYBER SOCIAL PROSUMER SYNERGY WEB FOUR POINT OH MY PEER2PEERBUTT

Also, not posting this in the soviet cybernetics (containment?) thread makes you a cunt.

Joseph Peterson
Joseph Peterson

sounds like some faggotry, porkies made up so people will tolerate, the lack of worthwhile employement, and the soul-crushing debt that most people have to deal with.

Mason King
Mason King

that's a lot of buzzwords

Colton Cook
Colton Cook

Cool, so money that any asshole with a 40 dollar inject printer can print. Good idea.

Matthew Ortiz
Matthew Ortiz

Can you put girlfriends in the NECESSARY NEED subnetwork? Cuz no one is getting food until I have a girlfriend.

Isaac Brown
Isaac Brown

Maybe sexual intimacy NEED requests will be in there. But maybe we could create a somewhat-necessary need subnetwork for that that doesn't completely slow down the network if the women registered do a sex strike or something.

Kevin Bailey
Kevin Bailey

girls want sex to you know, why would they strike by putting sex in the "necessary need" network?

Ethan Morgan
Ethan Morgan

How would anyone ever be able to build a factory?

Mason Turner
Mason Turner

Worker need requests

Logan Gomez
Logan Gomez

Who determines what is and isn't a "neccecary need".
This system is focussed on individual contributions, but modern society doesnt have individualistic contributions, but collective contributions. How would your system allow for a factory to exist?
How does this system remove inefficiencies like massive transportation costs?
Wouldn't this individualistic approach hinder scale economy efficiency and automation?
How would this system ever allow the impoverished proletariat to obtain the capital to purchase means of production in order to meet needs? It smells like one of those "i cut your hair you knit a hat for my dog" liberal bullshit ideas.
How would you measure the intensity of the needs or offer? Wouldn't a person who offers people a cooked meal get much more "reputation" than a guy offering to build you a house?

Expand your idea and address how it would solve the problems of a capitalist system.

What the fuck are you talking about.
inb4 labour vouchers are monopoly money
Its digital, dumbfuck.

John Hernandez
John Hernandez

Also
I will pay u
How much?

Owen Richardson
Owen Richardson

Who determines what is and isn't a "neccecary need".
The authors of the code that people choose to use. There'd be multiple versions if the original tries to stuff too much social stuff in the necessary need subnetwork.

How does this system remove inefficiencies like massive transportation costs?
Random paired needs will need to be paired based on where reasonably priced transportation methods connect (so users have a greater likelihood of being paired with each other if they live close to each other, being a non-anonymous network, location details are known)
Wouldn't this individualistic approach hinder scale economy efficiency and automation
To the same degree anarcho-communism would scale back capitalism's strength of infrastructure, although work-based need requests can be put on the network for building a factory

ow would this system ever allow the impoverished proletariat to obtain the capital to purchase means of production in order to meet needs? It smells like one of those "i cut your hair you knit a hat for my dog" liberal bullshit ideas.

It's not barter, and I hate those barter apps because they aren't gift economies. You don't need to put in OFFERS to submit NEEDS, there is no capital requirement. The only way a proletariat could get in trouble on the network is requesting a need and not following through with the transaction (like not opening the door for someone if the offer didn't involve mail-order)
ow would you measure the intensity of the needs or offer? Wouldn't a person who offers people a cooked meal get much more "reputation" than a guy offering to build you a house?
Intensity of needs is hardcoded into the network. Food gets the highest priority for example. If food needs aren't getting met, the network simply doesn't work. It's not a traditional reputation system, because the incentive is based on speeding the network up, and not gaining reputation points. Reputation *only* has to do with whether or not a transaction was fulfilled and it's purpose is to keep people from spamming the network with disingenuous needs. You aren't collecting reputation points, you are trying to avoid dissaproval points to avoid being sent to a containment subnetwork. I don't see a reason to even count reputation, only dissaproval ratings, I don't think I was clear about that.

Expand your idea and address how it would solve the problems of a capitalist system.

It's really just an online commune. It solves the problems just as much as any commune.

Owen Russell
Owen Russell

Oh, then the programmers or the people who control/influence the programmers control the economy and market and thus peoples lives. Great.

Daniel Turner
Daniel Turner

$5000 for a working scaled-down prototype. Just being able to submit needs-offers and get them matched in a decentralized network using a P2P DAG consensus chain. All the details don't need to be in there. Just proof of concept.

A less though out version of this has been proposed before (I have nothing to do with this video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-win6BIIpQ&t=537s
But no one ever put down the capital, or expanded the idea yet.

Easton Edwards
Easton Edwards

After considering the quality of most recent OPs, I'll take back what I said in

OFFERs submitted are randomly and automatically paired with NEEDs
It needs to have a search function. At the least, I would expect to be able to tag myself with the skills I have (in my own estimation). Whatever this thing is going to be, it will not instantly have every service, so I think it would be very frustrating to put in all sorts of needs without a chance of having them ever met. People should see what services are available and people should be able to tag their requests. I don't want to go through long plain text descriptions to figure out it is a request for something which I can't provide.

Another issue besides WHAT and WHERE is WHEN. It should be standard of whatever kind of form you fill out for requests or about what you can do that this isn't permanent. Every offer and request must have an expiration date by default. And moreover, if you are not available during certain time periods before the expiration that should also be something you can put into the computer-readable form, and accessible by the search function.

Ian Ortiz
Ian Ortiz

Im not op you illiterate retard.
Blackflag not even once.

Christopher Cook
Christopher Cook

A user that racks up enough disapproval is banned from the NECESSARY NEED subnetwork for a certain amount of time and must gather enough approved transactions in a containment network to be allowed back in
This is a fancy way of saying that unpopular people are forced to starve to death.

Jayden Fisher
Jayden Fisher

Friend2Friend proposeed a search function
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-win6BIIpQ

I'm open to a search function, but I liked the novelty/simplicity of randomness, plus a craigslist type search function seems to lend itself to discrimination based on how people advertise.

Jordan Bell
Jordan Bell

Social stuff is unlikely to be included in the necessary need subnetwork. There's little room to be unpopular from just having your food request filled. It's not a social network. So by approved transactions I don't mean someone saw a profile they didn't like and clicked "disapprove". By approved transcation I mean no one clicked "disapprove" after a transaction because they couldn't fill the transaction after they accepted a pairing.

tll;dr
Not accepting a pairing has nothing to do with the disapproval ratings

Liam Hill
Liam Hill

So… There's no traditional profiles, all you see is location, need and fulfilled need history after you've been paired with someone and can choose to accept or decline the pairing. That's it.

Christian Foster
Christian Foster

The authors of the code that people choose to use. There'd be multiple versions if the original tries to stuff too much social stuff in the necessary need subnetwork.
So you want to fracture the entire economic system into infinite amounts of sectarian subsections if people dont agree with what is or isnt "neccecary"? What a horrible idea.

To the same degree anarcho-communism would scale back capitalism's strength of infrastructure
Anarcho-communism wouldn't scale back capitalisms "strenght of infrastructure" at all. It would arguable improve it because there is no competition and information asymmetry. Not that this would be an argument even if it was true, because labour vouchers also exist in marxism and they wouldnt scale back industry infrastructure either.

It's not barter, and I hate those barter apps because they aren't gift economies.
No you just get blocked or rejected by everyone if your reputation is too low. And your reputation can never increase if you do not own the means of production.

Intensity of needs is hardcoded into the network.
What a great fucking system. We need a few programmers to hardcode what is and isnt neccecary and also rank all possible forms of labour according to how intense they think it is, without an objective measure.

I don't see a reason to even count reputation, only dissaproval ratings
Litterally the same thing. The amount of disapproval is a reputation.

It's really just an online commune.
No it isnt. Nowhere does it liberate people from private property, its just a LARP website where lifestylists can give each other knitten cat hats and friendship bracelets, because thats the extend that you can meaningfully fullfill needs of others while still being a wageslave.

Kayden Bailey
Kayden Bailey

So you want to fracture the entire economic system into infinite amounts of sectarian subsections if people dont agree with what is or isnt "neccecary"? What a horrible idea.

There would still be the most popular networks. In other words, there'd be networks large enough to make it interesting. See Bitcoin, Ethereum, Litecoin compared to whatever gets traded at $1 a day. The fact that there are 800 cryptocurrencies doesn't mean that the most popular ones are only used by 5 people. (although admittedly it would take a while to scale this up, and would probably need to be tested in a controlled environment to improve bad ideas.

No you just get blocked or rejected by everyone if your reputation is too low
I shouldn't have ever used the term reputation. You get sent to containment if you don't keep not following with transactions, and therefore getting dissaproval points, and slowing the network down. Users won't be able to see the dissaproval points. It's just hardcoded that after a certain amount of times that you don't help to get your transaction fulfilled you get sent to containment.

I don't see a reason to even count reputation
I take this back, the only reason there might encrypted reputation points would be to ensure that spammers don't grind the system to a halt, BUT these reputation are build on *use*, not *offers*. You could use the network the entire time just by putting in NEEDs and your encrypted reputation would keep going up because you were using the system correctly. Capital has no advantage in the system.

its just a LARP website where lifestylists can give each other knitten cat hats and friendship bracelets
No one is getting friendship bracelets until everyones food requests are met

The unique thing about the system is that it *doesn't work well* if people aren't facilitating enough matching, providing an incentive to facilitate matching.

Chase Carter
Chase Carter

the network is not anonymous, rigorous identity verification is needed, because sock accounts can't be allowed
I think it's entirely possible to allow multiple accounts. This can happen in two ways:
1. The basic design is built around one person = one account, the multi-account idea is patched in on top of that. Who got which multiple accounts is stored centrally, and this information is used by the center to prevent up-vote down-vote spam by the same user. Big question: How do we know that our data overlords at the center don't abuse this?

2. The design is built from the ground up on the assumption that one person can have multiple accounts. I think this is doable if you are okay with saying bye-bye to the idea of having meaningful aggregate data about the system. How to prevent identity spamming then? Web of trust. You get only recommendations by accounts that you trust and (weaker weight) accounts trusted by those accounts and (weaker still) accounts trusted by those and so on (but not so on forever). You just have to weight the recommendations in a certain way for this to work. It must follow this rule: If account A only has an indirect line of trust to another account X that runs through only one account B that the owner of A actually directly trusts, then the person owning account B or any other person in that line adding in new accounts and recommending each other will not increase the weight of the trust. The trust score your account sees for another account is capped by the amount of accounts you directly trust that have a positive connection with it.

Noah Foster
Noah Foster

The fact that there are 800 cryptocurrencies doesn't mean that the most popular ones are only used by 5 people.
That doesnt matter at all. By dividing the economy into sections that dont interact you deprive the entirely of the human race of the potential of these industries working together.

No one is getting friendship bracelets until everyones food requests are met
Nobody is getting their food needs met. No prole owns the means of production, proles can never fullfill the needs of the other proles because all the work they do to do so, only part of it they receive. It would require the bourgeoisie to also participate, but they will never do so because they can get more material wealth by selling it on the market, where they also need to recoup their costs and get new material.

The unique thing about the system is that it *doesn't work well* if people aren't facilitating enough matching, providing an incentive to facilitate matching.
An incentive to provide matching? How will people match? If you dont have a farm you can't provide a match, only demand. If you make clothes you can't match because people need food. If you do have a farm, why would you give people free food without a guarantee you get the things you need?

And why would this system be good at all? You are going to make people transport small tiny amounts of bullshit to other people, instead of transporting in bulk to central nodes.

Your idea is fucking retarded and will never work. It doesnt solve any of the problems of capitalism. You cant build socialism in one town, and you definitely cannot build socialism on one website.
I do not see any merit in using or building a system like this. It doesnt solve capitalism, it doesnt coordinate the economy in any way, it doesnt encompass an entire society, it cant meet de needs of society, it relies on the whims of some programmers to spitball the fundamentals of an entire economy.

Jacob Lopez
Jacob Lopez

1. The basic design is built around one person = one account, the multi-account idea is patched in on top of that. Who got which multiple accounts is stored centrally, and this information is used by the center to prevent up-vote down-vote spam by the same user. Big question: How do we know that our data overlords at the center don't abuse this?

OP here, yes you could patch multiple accounts on top of a single account. I'm trying to keep this as "keep it simple stupid" as possible. But the idea of multiple accounts seems fine. The reason for identity verification, like how dating apps use Facebook, is so people aren't taking the gift economy into the market economy by selling what they get off the gift economy through sock accounts.

Web of trust
I actually like your explanation of how a web of trust could be better than Facebook/fingerprint/whatever ID. It's not a bad idea. But not only does it effect the history of NEEDs met, it also keeps it the software from randomly matching people

With a web of trust and eliminating, you get… basically… more of a social network.

The reason I didn't like it being to social-networky, was because
1. It eliminates the crazy simplicity of using the system described in the OP
and
2. Having searchable profiles encourages discrimination

Anthony Edwards
Anthony Edwards

Actually, you know what, I like the idea of a web of trust a lot, as long as it can be as under-the-hood as possible, because maybe it doesn't keep people from being randomly matched. If you match with yourself, you could decline the pairing. I'm just worried about people approving "finished" transactions with themselves and keeping themselves in the network as bad actors that way. Is there a way to overcome that?

Evan Turner
Evan Turner

Nobody is getting their food needs met. No prole owns the means of production, proles can never fullfill the needs of the other proles because all the work they do to do so, only part of it they receive. It would require the bourgeoisie to also participate, but they will never do so because they can get more material wealth by selling it on the market, where they also need to recoup their costs and get new material.

*great point*. You are saying, if this to work at all, it would just work as a way for proles to divy up the small amount they already have. I thought about this and, yes, the upper middle class at least would need to contribute. The upper middle class has quite a bit of material resources. And even if this just ends up being like a safety net for proles, that's better than nothing. But great point.

An incentive to provide matching? How will people match? If you dont have a farm you can't provide a match, only demand. If you make clothes you can't match because people need food. If you do have a farm, why would you give people free food without a guarantee you get the things you need?

Another great point. So let's say there's 1000 food requests. Your argument is, "hey, how would these needs be met considering those people with resources aren't going to be generous enough. Plus isn't this wildly inefficient without worker shops?

Bourgeouise can put in requests for super non-essential items. Super non-essential items have a low priority for getting filled and have a negligible effect on the speed of the network. There is a small incentive for bourgeouise to participate in the network.

At the very least if this fails, you have
1. a record of all the people with needs unmet
2. exactly what needs are unmet
in the public ledger

What wouldn't be a better news story than that? Plus, because this is decentralized software, it's not like a non-profit committee gets bored and people's needs are thrown out in a digital dustbin. They are there forever, so if it takes some media attention to get more users, those needs are always there. And let's say it takes 5 years to get them met. It's still cool to have a need met at some point in time from some random person's genorosity. This network, even crawling at a slug's pace, is still interesting to those who need stuff.

Eli Long
Eli Long

Gift economy is a shitty meme which needs to die. The whole concept of gift presupposes private property in the first place.

Luis Diaz
Luis Diaz

I would expect to be able to tag myself with the skills I have (in my own estimation). Whatever this thing is going to be, it will not instantly have every service, so I think it would be very frustrating to put in all sorts of needs without a chance of having them ever met

Gift economy software could have a layered search function for more advanced requests. But before the system bothers with advanced requests, it needs to prove it can handle simple requests, and the simplicity of the network is a selling point.

It should be standard of whatever kind of form you fill out for requests or about what you can do that this isn't permanent.
OFFERs should have expiration dates as well as manual release option from the network. NEEDs don't need an expiration date, but can also have a manual release option from the network

Joshua Martinez
Joshua Martinez

OP here
It needs to have a search function
Actually you are right it does need a search function. But only for the purpose of efficiently filling needs so as to speed up the network. That's it. And the only thing they see on the "profiles" are
1. what they want
2. estimated charge of shipping if it needs to be shipped
3. history of needs fulfilled
and that's it

Josiah Bennett
Josiah Bennett

wrong link

Austin Harris
Austin Harris

It doesn't presuppose private or public ownership - it's just a mode of exchange.

Thomas Fisher
Thomas Fisher

Because most women do not wnat to touch most men ever and would not unless given some form of serious compensation like access to free food, place to stay, etc. Women would rather jerk-off and get high on xans/wine all night than ever fuck a dude they consider below their standards. Especially higher value women. Endless studies prove that they maintain stringent sexual selection standards unless the target mate is above a certain threshold of male attractiveness indicators which is correlated with her physical attractiveness. So the hotter a woman, the more strict her mating becomes and the more she is willing to forgo pleasurable sex and company for a higher value mate, and when she does settle it will still be with a man who is masculine, tall, well endowed, popular, well groomed etc and has some status. They're not going to fuck a bug-nerd dork at a local dive bar when they're bored even if he is charismatic and fun to be around. Its biologically impossible and untenable

Nolan Wood
Nolan Wood

That's not something that has to be set in stone

Alexander Hall
Alexander Hall

But doesn't a gift economy depend on private property?

Gabriel Kelly
Gabriel Kelly

v1.0.0
Is this scalable?

Asher Harris
Asher Harris

lool, maybe

Leo Perry
Leo Perry

what am I looking at?

Gabriel Baker
Gabriel Baker

The future.

Joshua Lewis
Joshua Lewis

GoFundMe 2.0
I'll pass

Caleb Moore
Caleb Moore

mode of exchange
dubs, that's the problem right there. In capitalism, we do not produce to consume, we produce for exchange, and our products are consumed by someone else. We must self-alienate the products of our labor to participate in markets, which by itself fucking sucks, since we cannot enjoy the creation of the thing, nor the thing itself, if we are constantly fucked over for it over our pay.

The nature of markets are that we never really know whether or not we are truly getting full compensation for our sold labor or that we are truly getting our money's worth. Right now we have little info, if at all, about the things we buy. Some people have a hard time pronouncing even the ingredients of certain foods, and those have to be listed on the labels. People will have to learn more about the world around them; earlier on they had to do that or it would kill them, and the fact that we have less need to do that is a pretty big problem, since people have even less of an incentive to actually learn to help themselves. That's the first thing we have to surmount as a species, the ease with which our curiosity and drive can be enslaved to artificial desires and addictions. We can help each other if we find each other and stop this from truly fucking us up. Stay tuned.

Lincoln Murphy
Lincoln Murphy

Gift Economy
The recent influx of wikipedia educated utopians is starting to give me a headache.

Cameron Wood
Cameron Wood

While I loathe the term gift economy (people think it means free shit without any obligations or reputation mechanisms) I can imagine something roughly resembling what OP describes. It's just since I (and probably most people reading this) don't own means of production I don't see much happening in such a network. Something like it can handle services like mowing the lawn, baby sitting, teaching a language or an instrument. Something like it can be used for the things you would sell on a flea market. What I don't see is actually organizing the production of things through it.

Austin Collins
Austin Collins

Users can see the entire fulfilled NEED history of users
We still live in a capitalist society, and people's data is still something they can make money off of.

Sebastian Phillips
Sebastian Phillips

No, it doesn't. Do you understand what private property is?

Carter Kelly
Carter Kelly

Yeah this totally sounds less unworkable than central planning. Imagine the process of constructing one computer (for example) with this model. How many transactions would have to be made back and forth at every step of the process? This is just amazingly impractical in an industrialised economy.

Jace Brooks
Jace Brooks

bump, i'm just lurking but I'm interested

Hudson Smith
Hudson Smith

It's inefficient in terms of transportation waste, but the reason it's not built on hyper-local community networks and therefore will be wasteful on transportation is because:

1. There won't be enough users to facilitate hyper-local transactions / worker shops / whatever anyway
and 2. If users see too much location info before accepting a pairing, they will be likely to discriminate or be offended by the distance and therefore never accept a pairing

Lincoln Bell
Lincoln Bell

What I don't see is actually organizing the production of things through it.

The US manufacturing base is extremely small
There's not much production to go around, but we have surpluses of everything.

Now if the OP wanted to allow transactions to occur btw countries, that'd be interesting and possible, but not practical for anything that isn't in bulk.

Hunter Morris
Hunter Morris

they
Who is they? The reason for a history of material goods (not necessarily social services, those could be hidden) is to have another counter-measure against hoarding. There can't feasibly be hard-coded limits on everything, so the public history lets individuals detect hoarders who try to game the software

Gavin Bennett
Gavin Bennett

My enemas are pretty simple. I am a FFer so I want and need a deep, total cleanout. I want my ass clean for 12 hours if need be.
use a fleet enema bottle. Just my preference. I use the larger size, there is a very small fleet enema that can be used but it requires several more bottles shot up my ass. The larger size 5oz is quicker. I shoot 4 of those up my ass. I then get down on all 4's. I then drop down on my shoulders while keeping my ass high in the air and let that water run deep in my colon. Trust me, this will take practice as you will have the major urge to release it.
For the sake of keeping your bathroom floor clean, STAY NEAR YOUR TOILET! You will have a major urge to release but it will subside if you can hold it. I then stand up and shoot 4 more(another 20oz) of water up me and yes it gets really hard to hold it in but I once again get down on my shoulders, ass up and let that water run deep in my colon.
By that point I am SO FUCKING ready to release. It feels so good to plop down on the toilet and let that eruption go from my ass. I feel like it cleanses my soul!
I gently push all the water out. BUT IN NO WAY AM I FULLY CLEANED OUT YET. The worst has yet to come out and needs to be lured out. That nasty shitty water that if not cleaned out will likely come out while later getting fucked.
Inserting a dildo makes quick work of luring out all of that shitty nastiness. As deep as you can take the dildo will lure out the water faster. Any good bottom at that point should be inserting a dildo, just for hole prep for fucking. It is a good way to open up your hole anyway, to get it ready for a good hard cock pounding.
But it also serves the purpose of luring out that final shitty water. IMO I can't get that dirty water out unless I insert a dildo for a few minutes. While I insert the dildo, I hold it in and brush my teeth, shave etc and get ready for the shower. I leave the dildo in for at least 10 minutes while brushing teeth etc. I pull it out and out comes the remaining dirty water. One more quick fleet bottle to rinse and into the shower I go.
It takes me 10 minutes to enema and push it out. Another 10 minutes or so of dildoing to get the water out while prepping, shaving etc.
I can be fully enemad, showered and out the door in under an hour and be 100% confident of my hole being clean for up to 12 hours after the enema.

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