Any argument against labour vouchers?

Nolan Collins
Nolan Collins

of course they don't abolish law of value, but they are a pretty good alternative to money until we reach absolute automation of work.

i mean, it's way better than a keynesian boureaucratic state…

Robert Rogers
Robert Rogers

titoflag
it's way better than a keynesian boureaucratic stateā€¦
???

I dont think anybody here is against labour vouchers unless they are delusional "communism will happen instantly".

absolute automation of work.
Not neccecary, we just need to reach post-scarcity for enough commodities and enough automation that all the labour can be done voluntarily and the remaining scarce commodities (luxery goods) can be rationed.

Luke Wilson
Luke Wilson

Not neccecary, we just need to reach post-scarcity for enough commodities and enough automation that all the labour can be done voluntarily
Ohhh, ok. Wew, almost broke a sweat there, we just have to reach post scarcity.

Lucas Morris
Lucas Morris

Scarcity and finiteness arent the same.

William Phillips
William Phillips

post scarcity= absolute automation of work in the worst scenario, when people hate to work.

also tito established labour vouchers

Grayson Collins
Grayson Collins

of course they don't abolish law of value

They do.

Dominic Reyes
Dominic Reyes

i'm breaking so little sweats thanks to this thread!

Angel Walker
Angel Walker

tito established labourvouchers
Titoism doesnt have labour vouchers, and they existed way before tito ever supposedly "established" them

Joshua Myers
Joshua Myers

How do you keep labour vouchers from becoming scrip for the state?

Scrip as in the old company-town tactic of owning the houses and grocery store. Instead of paying the workers money, they paid them in scrip, which went to company-owned rent and food.

What % of your labour is converted into labour vouchers, what will be given to you as hard cash (to be spent on luxuries, saved, or given to charity)?

Without an idea on how to best balance the workers need for their work to be used for things that matter to them individually they will still be alienated from their work. You can buy a kg of rice with a labour voucher, can you buy a fast food meal? Do charities take labour vouchers? What is the value of a labour voucher I hide under my mattress for six months?

Elijah Torres
Elijah Torres

They are not an alternative to money you spastic retard, they are money. They're just a special kind of money that is significantly less useful then the currency people trade with today.

Samuel Martin
Samuel Martin

Cool it buddy

Jack Howard
Jack Howard

How do you keep labour vouchers from becoming scrip for the state?
If the state is truly controlled by the workers then all industry is owned by the workers collectively, so it does become a "scrip" for society.

What % of your labour is converted into labour vouchers,
All of it. Labour vouchers are also spend on luxeries, they can be saved over time, and charity won't be neccecary in a society where the people are taken care of. If you want to allocate more resources to sad eyed puppies or cancer research, you make sure that happens during the democratic planning.

Without an idea on how to best balance the workers need for their work to be used for things that matter to them individually they will still be alienated from their work.
Nobody is going to appoint people to positions, they apply themselves.

You can buy a kg of rice with a labour voucher, can you buy a fast food meal?
Yes. Why not?

What is the value of a labour voucher I hide under my mattress for six months?
The labour vouchers value you still have from 6 months ago is still worth whatever labour time you put into it, and since a socialist society aims to decrease SNLT, it should increase in value slowly over time.

They're just a special kind of money that is significantly less useful then the currency people trade with today.
Except it is more usefull to society. It cannot be used to speculate, which is a useless parasitic activity, it cannot be used as capital, which is what socialism is against.

It can be used to buy stuff, it can be saved for expensive purchases. That is the only thing money is usefull for if youre not a rich swine.

Luke Murphy
Luke Murphy

labour vouches are money
labour vouchers don't circulate moron.

Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey

It doesn't have to circulate to be money you retard. Look up the three functions of money: Unit of Account, Medium of Exchange, Storage of Value.

It requires no explanation how a labor voucher is a unit of account or a storage of value. The only thing that is murky is the medium of exchange principle… But once you understand the abstraction then you see how labor vouchers are a medium of exchange as well.

Vouchers work as a medium of exchange in an aggregate. A laborer produces something of a deemed quality of value in which he is given a labor voucher for his efforts. He trades said voucher for whatever bullshit goods he wants.

Now take away the abstraction. The laborer is simply trading his labor time for goods though this labor voucher system. Medium of exchange.

The only thing you're doing is re-inventing money in a less useful form that it currently exists in. Congrats.

Kevin Rivera
Kevin Rivera

m-c-m' doesn't apply which is what matter anyways

Elijah White
Elijah White

less useful form
It is more usefull for a socialist society you dumbfuck. More features doesnt mean it is better, sometimes how something limits your abilities makes it better.

Gabriel Miller
Gabriel Miller

The only thing you're doing is re-inventing money in a less useful form that it currently exists in.
Less useful for whom?

Luis Hernandez
Luis Hernandez

Factoring out the circulation of money and use in things like investment in capital and speculation is what gave Mises and his economic calculation argument merit.

The only thing you're doing is giving yourself less ability to sufficiently respond to Mises with this voucher system.

Parker Clark
Parker Clark

ablobloblo muh calculation argument
Just answer the question: Less useful for whom?

Brody Collins
Brody Collins

I gave you the answer. Do you really need me to hold your hand and walk you through it too?

The answer is really simple… It's better for you. This labor voucher system only strengthens the arguments your detractors use against you.

You want to start a social revolution? You might want to start by not sabotaging your own ideology by making it less tenable then it was before… Just a thought.

Thomas Harris
Thomas Harris

It's money that any idiot with a 40 dollar inkject printer can print. Unless you have a centralized mint, at which you just created an all powerful state capitalist government. Congrats.

Ryder Lopez
Ryder Lopez

I gave you the answer. Do you really need me to hold your hand and walk you through it too?
Yes I do. I do not understand what you mean. I do not invest my money in anything, as I don't have enough. Nor is anybody in my family in that position. Nor do I see myself in that position in the future. So how could labour vouchers be less useful for me?

William Collins
William Collins

labour vouchers>energy credits>nothing

Or labour vouchers>nothing

Or just >nothing

Bentley Clark
Bentley Clark

There are some problems with it. I think Marx was right in spirit when he suggested them but it's a little outdated now.

- If you plan the entire economy in detail and establish production for use, money as a compensation for your labor becomes virtually the same as a labor voucher in function. The only difference would be that money I still transferable, but as long as business is controlled, this is actually a good thing, see next point

- It's oppressive for housewives and family member doing unpaid domestic labor. With labor vouchers, only the breadwinner of the family would be allowed to purchase stuff. Circulating value within a household should be a prerogative of the family unit

- Retired people, students and those unable to work need to be handed out labor vouchers as well, which means additional bureaucracy

- A black market would be established with foreign money

- It doesn't account for more demanding labor. As some labor requires either more physical effort or consistent mental concentration, it should be differently rewarded, otherwise there will be no incentive

- It doesn't account for artists or performers, or at least, very very badly

- How are you even going to control non-transferability? Customize every single labor voucher for their respective owner? Have your retina scanned when you purchase a bag of chips? Absolutely a pain in the arse

I'm sorry, but labor vouchers are not only inefficient and p r o b l e m a t i c, their merits are completely underwhelming compared to a classical, centrally planned money economy. And don't tell me that money is the apex of the law of value - money only becomes a self-perpetuating system within commodity fetishism as long as their is production for exchange, under production for use it changes in character, transforms into some enhanced form of an exchange medium, similar as it was in pre-capitalist times (feudalism and slavehoder society both has money). There is also absence of debt and inflation in a centrally planned economy.

Jason Russell
Jason Russell

they are just money. Instead of going Money>Labour Vouchers>Moneyless we could just go Money>Moneyless.as soon as the technology allows us.

Owen Harris
Owen Harris

it's an "is X good or bad" episode
Labor vouchers are a tool with benefits and drawbacks. They're neither good nor bad on their own. It's the context and execution that matters the most here. When trying to transition from market capitalism at first they are useful because the infrastructure and ideology is based on exchange. As data gets collected on people's needs and production can be planned more efficiently, labor vouchers lose their utility and would become obsolete. In the current year, labor vouchers would become obsolete faster because computer technology could be rapidly deployed to monitor people's needs and adjust production and distribution accordingly. Hell, for a lot of things we are already in post-scarcity (food for instance), the problem is just one of distribution.

Owen Hall
Owen Hall

Factoring out the circulation of money and use in things like investment in capital and speculation is what gave Mises and his economic calculation argument merit.

prices in a labour voucher system would still exist, as they will emerge from the differences in difficulty of the jobs, in fact economic calculation would be much more efficient without private property (abolish private property is needed to establish a labour voucher system)

no

these are pretty good arguments, but they will be eventually solved once

you truly are a black flag

Camden Gutierrez
Camden Gutierrez

Jacque Fresco, is that you?

Juan Wright
Juan Wright

unironically

James Butler
James Butler

Here's Marx on the subject a few decades after he first hypothesized them in Capital vol. 2 (part 3, chapter 18, 1), :
This circumstance, then, arises from the material character of the particular labour-process, not from its social form. In the case of socialised production the money-capital is eliminated. Society distributes labour-power and means of production to the different branches of production. The producers may, for all it matters, receive paper vouchers entitling them to withdraw from the social supplies of consumer goods a quantity corresponding to their labour-time. These vouchers are not money. They do not circulate.

check mate you dumb cuck

Nathaniel Myers
Nathaniel Myers

of course they don't abolish law of value

Doesn't it? I mean in an economy based on non-transferable currency i don't see how there can possibly be production for exchange.

Wyatt Campbell
Wyatt Campbell

law of value = value is proportional to labour
which is the sole definition of labour voucher

making money through property and speculation is what's impossible to do under a labour voucher system (m-cm' doesn't apply)

Julian Jackson
Julian Jackson

If the Material conditions for money still exist, money will arise, no matter how unofficial and illegal it it perceived to be.

Luis Hernandez
Luis Hernandez

Checkmate what? Marx was wrong you philistine. It does not need to circulate to be money… We've already covered that. Instead of running to Marx and hoping some dude who has been dead in the ground for over 100 years you could think for yourself…

Liam Garcia
Liam Garcia

Labour vouchers are totally the same as money and I am also very mad about them for a mysterious reason
Hmm. May I ask how you and your parents obtain your income?

Jose Flores
Jose Flores

Sure. My dad worked in construction for 20 some years and has been driving truck for close to 10 now. My mom works in accounting. I've worked shitty retail jobs until I went off to school. Graduated and got a job an office job handling paperwork. Now, I'm looking to head back to school.

You have the three functions of money and labor vouchers hit on all three. Being a retard and saying irrelevant or stupid shit doesn't change that.

Landon Gray
Landon Gray

So what's your problem? What is it that you want to do that labour vouchers won't let you do?

Tyler White
Tyler White

of course they don't abolish law of value
You can only have something like labour vouchers (yes, something like: there are many alternative options, Marx acknowledges this and only mentions labour vouchers as one practical example) on the very condition that there is no more value production.

Read Marx and obtain an understanding of the genesis of the value form pls thanks.

Brody Rivera
Brody Rivera

saving thread from /pol/yp raid

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