Friendly reminder that "proletarian state" is an oxymoron as the state is a...

Carson Cook
Carson Cook

Friendly reminder that "proletarian state" is an oxymoron as the state is a tool of class opression and it is necessary for the proletariat in the social revolution to self-abolish their class.

Pic unrelated.

All urls found in this thread:
https://maoistrebelnews.com/2017/01/11/farm-to-factory-the-soviet-industrial-revolution/
Liam Wood
Liam Wood

Yeah.

Connor Smith
Connor Smith

Yeah, I'm sure the bourgeoisie will just stop existing or all suddently become commies once the revolution happens. Fucking hell. The proletarian state is necessary precisely because the state is a tool of oppresion. Much like the bourgeois state is a tool of oppresion used by the bourgeoisie against the proletariat, the proletarian state needs to be a tool of oppresion used by the proletariat against the bourgeoisie.

Christopher Butler
Christopher Butler

What new class is oppressing the proletariat in a proletarian state?

Mason Baker
Mason Baker

The new bourgeoisie. The ones who establish the state again, thats why OP is saying it's an oxymoron.

Hierarchy, oligarchy, classes. They have created those things again.

Aaron Ward
Aaron Ward

And how do you deal with the inevitable uprising of the bourgeoisie after a revolution? (See: Russian Civil war)

Juan Morgan
Juan Morgan

What makes them bourgeois? The fact they don't do manual labour?

Dylan Taylor
Dylan Taylor

nice

James Hughes
James Hughes

Once the revolution has succeeded, former pigs have no sway over the new system if you replace the government with a bottom-up federation of direct democratic assemblies. Voting is nice, but democracy is better. "Revisionism" in the Soviet Union was inevitable because the interests of the bureaucracy conflicted with those of the workers and they formed a new class.

They might not be bourgeois as we know it, but they definitely are a new class. Remember, reproduction of capital is impersonal, it doesn't care who is its manager.

Austin Morris
Austin Morris

Having the people in arms Paris Commune style is a form of proletarian state. Shooting the bourgies who rebel is a form of oppresion against them, you're only confirming what I said.

Asher White
Asher White

I didn't so much mean having sway over the system as just a bourgie insurection

Hunter Wilson
Hunter Wilson

They might not be bourgeois as we know it, but they definitely are a new class.

I still can't see how they are definitely a new class? The only difference is the type of labour they carried out and probably their wages. But a prole making more than another prole doesn't bump them into a new class.

Sebastian Thomas
Sebastian Thomas

the fact that they're masters

didn't want to become individuals they wanted to remain masters. they're dead, they can't complain anymore.

Jace Cruz
Jace Cruz

And how do you make the people who want to remain masters dead, if not by arming the proletariat?

Charles Green
Charles Green

duh.

Brayden Kelly
Brayden Kelly

That's what a state is, instituions that are upkept by an armed force controlled by a class.

Joseph Cruz
Joseph Cruz

I can hold a weapon I have 2 arms. I can decide for myself, my own self interest for what to use it I have a brain.

Turns out other individuals can too. They don't need masters telling them what to do. Good night.

Nathan Martin
Nathan Martin

A state doesn't necesarilly involve a "master" telling you what to do. The bourgeois state does, but that does not mean the proletarian state should, it defenitely should not. Having the people be in arms is a form of armed force.

Camden Sullivan
Camden Sullivan

1786939
A state doesn't necesarilly involve a "master"
jesus
hahahah
good night man

Luis Lee
Luis Lee

You're confusion the notion of state with the notion of a BOURGEOIS state. As I've already said, a state is simply institutions that are upkept by an armed force. Under a bourgeois state, this involves 'masters", because the bourgeoisie needs to keep a tight grip on everything so that they not be overthrown by the much more numerous proletariat. Under a proletarian state, there would be no need for this. Once again, just having the people be in arms is a form of armed force.

Nathaniel Howard
Nathaniel Howard

muh non-state state

Liam Sullivan
Liam Sullivan

"Revisionism" in the Soviet Union was inevitable because the interests of the bureaucracy conflicted with those of the workers
Can you explain how their interests were different?

Juan Gomez
Juan Gomez

What about if the dictatorship of the proletariat is used to denote the dictatorship of the proletariat class as a whole in and of itself, the self-organized rule of the armed workers without the dictates of a party elite. Would that not be a "proletarian state" which an anarchist would be willing to support and take part in.

Dictatorship of the proletariate as armed organizations of direct class rule rather than dictatorship of the proletariat as a one party state organized for the supposed benefit of the proletariat. Depriving the bourgeoisie of political power is still a necessity no?

Adrian Carter
Adrian Carter

Not the guy you were responding to, but.
The interests of the bureaucracy were different from that of the general proletariat under the soviet union because of the material conditions of russia and neighboring revolutionary countries at the time. Russia was a backwater peasant country that had just gone through two wars, and as such there was hardly any food left. However, important elected members of the party/councils need to be kept alive for obvious reasons, and thus are treated a bit better than the rest. This wasn't inherently bad per say, because the people who were elected need to not be starving, but it also led them to wanting to keep their positions, lest they go back to starving again. Had the revolution been succesful in more advanced countries, this would have not been a problem, but this was not the case. Lenin himself even said if the revolution did not succeed in Germany, the USSR would not last as it was for more than two months.

Gabriel Foster
Gabriel Foster

Anarchists are such children.

The Finnish Bolshevik is pretty shit sometimes but that's a good point he makes there.

Parker Barnes
Parker Barnes

The Finnish Bolshevik is pretty shit sometimes
Absolutely. He's still in the 20th century siege mentality of the cold war. Dude needs some 21st century theories of communism, *sniff.*

Ryan Thompson
Ryan Thompson

but it also led them to wanting to keep their positions
But they surely wouldn't maintain their position if they'd have fucked up? I mean, considering how many managers and elected officials got removed in the Stalin period (often on reports of the workers) I don't really see how actively working against the workers interest would be on their agenda. How would you even determine the workers interest? Having direct democracy over every single decision?

Referring to the famine, I hope you don't believe that the famine wasn't deliberately engineered or simply seen as collateral damage? I'm not saying there was absolutely no mismanagement (there was), but there was also sabotage and the material conditions, as you said, made it extremely difficult to transform everything smoothly into a collectivized agriculture. Still, there have been multiple works about how collectivization was the best alternative for USSR at that time, for example "From Farm to Factory" by Allen

https://maoistrebelnews.com/2017/01/11/farm-to-factory-the-soviet-industrial-revolution/

(Yes I know it's the Roo but he's just summarizing the book)

Had the revolution been succesful in more advanced countries, this would have not been a problem, but this was not the case
No objection to that, no ML would disagree with that.

Hunter Bell
Hunter Bell

implying you wouldn't be besieged once there was a socialist revolution just like Cuba, DPRK etc. is
implying Žižek has good communist theory besides critisizing ideology all the time

Hudson Murphy
Hudson Murphy

Friendly reminder that you faggots have created states inside preexisting states, you anarchist class oppressors you.
How do you like your anarchist new bourgeoisie in Spain, Mexico, Ukraine, Korea, Rojava or whatever else you take pride of next, retard?

Grayson Brooks
Grayson Brooks

ITT anarchists still don't understand what the Marxist definition of a state is, nor the dictatorship of the proletariat

Michael Cruz
Michael Cruz

marxist definition of state
the only important one
kinda culty

Jace White
Jace White

all organization is a state

Seeing how most self-described marxists think a sovdem "transitionary" state is "the lower stage of communism", neither do you fags.

Hudson Harris
Hudson Harris

Friendly reminder that you faggots have created states inside preexisting states, you anarchist class oppressors you.

Nolan Bailey
Nolan Bailey

Dude needs some 21st century theories of communism

Anthony Price
Anthony Price

it's important to understand if you're going to critique marxism tho

James Carter
James Carter

it's not the only important one, but it's the one the OP had to be talking about, because its intent was to talk about Marxists.

Daniel Reyes
Daniel Reyes

bottom-up federation of direct democratic assemblies

Anarchists don't seem to really get what the state actually is but are more concerned about aesthetics and form. Why are you so fond of utopianism?

Jace Murphy
Jace Murphy

any form of organization is a state
unless you think organization will just fade away you're a utopian

Eli Gray
Eli Gray

I agree, a shining example of non-statist organizations I recall are kekalonia with its definitely non-statist labour camps or Makhno's army with its definitely non-statist conscription

Josiah Young
Josiah Young

Who dis sperm germ?

Nicholas Gutierrez
Nicholas Gutierrez

police, military, prisons, secret service and government in a clearly defined territory where only the anarchists are allowed to hold the monopoly of violence
still not a state because anarchists say so
This is Anarchyball-tier misrepresentation. Pic related.

Matthew Lopez
Matthew Lopez

And people wonder why so many revolutions shit the bed

Evan Morris
Evan Morris

Society can only be stateless once it's classless.

Wyatt Campbell
Wyatt Campbell

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

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