Release of Arctic Methane "May Be Apocalyptic," Study Warns

Release of Arctic Methane "May Be Apocalyptic," Study Warns
truth-out.org/news/item/39957-release-of-arctic-methane-may-be-apocalyptic-study-warns

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=g1Sq1Nr58hM
forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/
robertscribbler.com/
phys.org/news/2017-02-gas-hydrate-breakdown-massive-greenhouse.html
phys.org/news/2017-03-percent-global-methane-deposits-due.html
youtube.com/watch?v=ZizMmubcF54
news.vice.com/article/the-drought-that-preceded-syrias-civil-war-was-likely-the-worst-in-900-years
youtube.com/watch?v=h0qdbsE3Jqo
theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/plan-to-refreeze-arctic-before-ice-goes-for-good-climate-change
twin.sci-hub.cc/558cf2a94fe6cad671e27f62c62d0820/ruppel2016.pdf
ft.com/content/3f1ba5ba-ddac-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6
youtube.com/watch?v=dlhg_QF1cBk
skepticalscience.com/toward-improved-discussions-methane.html
skepticalscience.com/argument.php
cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
scientificamerican.com/article/only-60-years-of-farming-left-if-soil-degradation-continues/
robertscribbler.com/2016/07/18/scores-of-city-sized-siberian-wildfires-spew-2500-mile-long-plume-of-smoke-over-northern-hemisphere/
archive.is/h2ZEl
churchofeuthanasia.org
pm22100.net/docs/pdf/enercoop/energie/gaz/130316_Methane_Hydrates_and_Contemporary_Climate_Change.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=UmDrLaebUa4
upworthy.com/20-years-of-data-reveals-that-congress-doesnt-care-what-you-think
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Have my prayers been answered? Fuck this gay earth.
At least Elon Musk will spread the seed of humanity to Mars and now that all the proles will die socialism will be meaningless anyway.

Maybe porky will think about not fucking up the planet even more.

Oh.

gg no re

At least some of us for some time had iPones, Hummers and McMansions. It was all worth it!

That's right don't fight for your rights, it's useless anyway.

I think even the worst case cenarios didnt had more than 4,5C increase till 2100, still a dire warning

Ohahaha. Jesus christ we're fucked.

Space colonization is fertile ground for socialism. I don't see people hoarding commodities on Mars when they will be trying very hard to survive.

Seriously though. If we as a species let it come to this point, we deserve to go extinct.

Yeah, for the Bourgs.

There will never be enough fuel to move everyone, there won't be ideological inclination to send a "diverse" spacecrew either. It'll probably just be Chinese Communist Party tbh.

youtube.com/watch?v=g1Sq1Nr58hM

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Global warming is such a rabbit hole. Once you really look into it you realise how bullshit all the predictions are. They ignore positive feedback loops, and don't factor in melting permafrost or the methane emergency. They also assume science fiction levels of carbon sequestration technology that we are not even capable of getting anywhere near. (Please never buy into the futurist 'technology will save us!' bullshit, it's some of the purest ideology the world has ever seen).

Even a 4.5C increase by 2100 is hopeful as fuck. We're all completely fucked and even porky doesn't realise it yet, they either seem to think their money will protect them (it will for a while) or they just don't care as they're too greedy for short term gain.

I browse global warming boards were people that aren't actually climate change scientists seem to dedicate their lives to looking into this stuff, but do so without well…all the ideology that comes with being part of the system, as well as the freedom to truly speak out (reminds me of leftypol and other leftist boards tbh) and it's generally accepted we're already extinct, just a matter of when.

...

I was operating under the assumption that we're all on this page but are willing to operate on the assumption that the planet is salvageable because if not it doesn't matter and if so then we better at least try.

The only scenario where global warming is stopped is if a communist revolution takes over the world and dumps everything into preventing it. Really the only hope was 20th century communism but FDR had to implement the New Deal and pacify the workers in the states. If the US had had a revolution mid-20th century we'd be in full communism by now.

For comparison, the average global temperature of the Earth during the last Ice Age was about 5C cooler.

Yeah, it looks pretty grim right now.

Link?

Not surprised. Many climate models do not appear to take into account desertification, the limits of how much CO2 can be reasonable stored in oceans, increases in nitrous oxide (which will rise rapidly between now and 2050), continuing increases in consumption (and thus energy requirements) and now arctic and Siberian methane deposits.

The only scenario where climate change can now be stopped is a complete, immediate crash of the entire global economy and likely the starvation of billions.
We can either choose between several flavors of apocalypse or monstrous autogenocides.

I've read that somewhere around +5C, the potential humidity of the atmosphere will be so high that water gets sucked out of the dirt and nothing will be able to grow.

Sorry I don't mean to sound defeatist. I will still fight in every way I can for communism. Our only hope is a communist revolution in the near future. Honestly I'd say it has to be in the next decade though, maybe in the next two decades, and I just cannot fathom that happening.

So realistically, we're fucked. But there is still a glimmer of hope and that's what everyone on this board has to fight for.

And obviously I mean a worldwide and successful revolution where most of the world changes to a socialist mode of production and is completely environmentally focused, within that time frame.

Honestly I haven't browsed many of the blogs or forums I used to in a long time. It's not good for my depression. I think this was on of the forums though: forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/
and this is a good blog I do still follow: robertscribbler.com/

If billions have to die, let's at least manage it in a planned and rational way.

Once again I'll shill for eco-Stalinism.

Good. This is karmic retribution for neoliberalism.

Please don't ruin my fantasy with the notion of a randian superman saving humanity. We've shown we don't deserve salvation.

The few good people are going to show up at heavens gate to fund it unmanned, god sobbing in the corner. Even an omnipotent being couldn't foresee the extent of our failure.>>1516088

Have fun cleaning up after our mess you losers!

I'm not a tankie. But I'd support a platform of turning most boomers into soylent green.

Immediately.

This just gave me more reasons to fight for Communism. Now it is a question of life or death of the whole mankind, and we must do whatever is needed to reach Communism before that permafrost is melted.

Fuck yeah.
Human extinction, best day of my life.

Economic meltdown will bring about the the quelling of Climate Change and the Proletarian Revolution. Have hope, comrades.

Create a catastrophe then sell the solution. Millions, perhaps even billions will die but it won't necessarily mean the end of life on earth. Meanwhile, porky will be living comfortably selling the solution for a nice profit

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The Right Wing deep state doesn't care, that's why depopulationism is becoming popular in alt right circles. They just want domination of all minerals, metals and oil resources. The thawing of the Arctic and Antarctic, Space Probe mining of asteroids and the moon, this is what all our technological efforts are dedicated towards. We can all die as far as they're concerned.

°40C degrees runaway warming (CO2+NO2+Methane Hydrates+Mass Algae Blooms+Increases in consumption) will mean the end of life, at least for humanity and most species on this planet.

It's a matter of thermodynamics at that point. It's the reason why you can't create a settlement on the surface of Venus even if the materials used could survive the local conditions.
Human bodies can't survive and operate at that temperature. Most life on Earth can't. And considering thermodynamic systems tend to want to reach equilibrium, there's no point using artificial cooling either because either the cooling medium will be too hot (air) or energy requirements will become exorbitant (thermoelectric).

Last time it took Earth millions of years to recover from such an event. And even those temperatures were lower than the runaway effect now produced.

build a dam
greenland gets green again, turn sibir and alaska into farmlands.

there, global warming solved.

There's a difference between the versions of depopulationism being advocated.

(Deep) ecologists generally want to limit consumption and slowly reduce population numbers to sustainable levels. At least on Earth.
The kind of global omnicide advocated on places like Holla Forums on the other hand, is born out of pure greed: "Screw everyone, kill them all so we can have more commodities."

Interestingly that's exactly what the polyps accuse the "Jews" of planning. Though actually, their version of the "Jewish" plan is slightly more benevolent, because we'd just be enslaved.
Holla Forums just wants to kill every "non-white" Turner Diaries style.

You need to read further and look beyond just "CO2" and "Sea level rises" to see what the actual problem is.

Just a sea level rise would be present a problem, but would hardly be the end of civilization, except for a few island nations and Bangladesh (without flood walls).
And a temperature rise of °2C degrees is easily survivable.

The kind of runaway effect that is becoming more evident every year on the other hand, is a path towards extinction.

They've already developed ways to extract CO2 from the atmosphere. Like I said, they'll sell the solutions to these problems for a premium and the governments of the world will buy it

If i understand this right, single over 5km high Volcano releases more CO2 to the atmosphere than the whole worlds companies combined in a year.
Whole thing is a fucking joke.

It's not even just the warming or sea levels. There are shitloads of other indirect effects, like ocean acidification from gases dissolving into the ocean. For fuck's sake the overwhelming majority of oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by sea algae that can't live in a fucking acid bath.

The Jews will finally be gassed. With methane. SIEG HEIL!

if id protect nature its because its the right thing to do, wont rely on fearmongering

You don't. Volcanoes primarily release ash, which has a net cooling effect due to reflecting light back into space.

The catastrophe is real, it just won't be the end of life on earth. You're definitely one of the people that is going to be fucked over massively by it, though

fuck off to reddit retard

It's not just CO2

People keep forgetting this. Also
Producing more CO2 than the system can absorb every year is not the same as a once in a century event.

If these scientists are so sure we're fucked, they should be considering hail mary radical geoengineering solutions like nuking the Yellowstone super volcano to give us a global heatshield, or just unleashing the airborne hardened smallpox superplague like in Rainbow Six. It's clear whatever political solutions they have in mind aren't going to fly.

Then genetically engineer better algae. Scientists need to get off their ass and solve the problem. People are tired of this whiny nihilist handwringing.

Holy shit you all need to calm down with your doom porn fearmongering. One article was posted about one study that talks about "maybe" "possibly" an apocalyptic event whereas mainstream climatologists, who have every reason to exaggerate, aren't acting this apocalyptic. You all probably haven't even read the study and are taking it at face value like it's a perfect prediction of the future. And somehow you got a world temperature increase to 40C which I don't even remember reading in the article.

Literally acting like the Earth is going to die and turn into a literal rock and humanity is going to go extinct like this guy is even more absurd.

Which is it, a massive alga bloom or extinction?

Nobody has the money for that shit. Scientists are this mystical cabal that exists outside of politics, budgets, time, and space.

Then make a Kickstarter. Reddit coughed up 20 million for Solar Freakin Roadways XD and that was a retarded idea. Imagine what something plausible could rake in.

There's more than one species of algae you dense motherfucker. Sea algae, as in kelp, is responsible for producing most of our oxygen. Harmful algal blooms are totally different and will kill off the kelp by blocking out the sun

As much of a scam as that was, it was a very concrete and easily understood concept. Regular people aren't going to donate to a vague research fund, and that's a bad way to fund that kind of research anyway because there's no fixed amount of money that goes into it. How much it costs to make a discovery depends entirely on the path to get there. The actual problem here is money itself, that is, production for exchange. The only way to fix this shit is to ditch capitalism.

God damn, if something like that did happen it might actually be in our interest to use nukes for the temporary cooling and population dieoff. It'd be catastrophic but even that would be preferable to turning the Earth into a second Venus.

Or you know. We could just reduce our consumption levels. Because in an infinitely growing economy we will never win this race.

It's not that easy. Organisms that can survive these temperatures are fundamentally different on a physiological level.
I can't even name a single thermophilic organism more complex than algae.

°40C is mentioned in related studies. It's basically a massive chain reaction of greenhouse gasses (CO2 and NO2 primarily) > methane hydrates > Melting icecaps and reductions in seasonal ice/snow reducing albedo > dying oceans, etc.

And most of this is on top of existing emissions and levels. The graphs to the left will have dire consequences, and those are optimistic. Add dozens of thousands of gigatons of methane and "burried" co2 on top of that, and we will be heading for an apocalypse.

Extinction of most humans and higher lifeforms. Greenhouse Earth will be a desert with "dead" purple algae oceans.

The terrifying thing is, if it did happen we may not realize it for a while. And even if we had a climatologist on the scene and magically live streaming the gases blowing out of the ice sheet, you'd still have the oil companies' shill out in full force making damn sure we had a robust and healthy debate for days weeks months years about it.

Humanity is going nowhere. Society might, but you know Porky is just going set up the Enclave somewhere and be a-okay in the long term.

Like, trees?

Which btw for everyone not yet convinced would die when exposed to these extreme temperatures.

That's one of the reasons why there was a massive plant die-off during the Permian-Triasic extinction event.

Why are the anti-"alarmists" always so condescending and uneducated? And why do they always shill in such force?

We're just trying to be realistic as to how quickly a communist revolution has to happen, and how ecologically minded the proletariat have to be. You'd think radical leftists would be the most informed about all this stuff.

I never see "anti-alarmists" post in huge numbers or even frequently for that matter. When it comes to those who would be considered "alarmists", they completely dominate threads like these.

Eh, I guess so. They just trigger me really hard.

Should have been thousands.

Basically, if CO2 keeps rising at this rate the scenario in OP will unfold this century.

There's really not much you can do about carbon pollution; "degrowth" is a polite illusion. Collapse of the current global industrial order is what we're talking about here. When that occurs, population and consumption will naturally drop as access to resources falls.

The point is to determine what form of socialism is best to preserve some form of egalitarian/technological society, in order to prevent a future where all of humanity balkanizes into idpol groups and takes turns genociding each other in resource wars. Personally I think Bookchin-inspired federations of city-territories are the best system proposed so far.

This.

When I talk to people about how dire our collective situation is and what would be required to scale back our species to a level that might be able to survive on this planet for longer than just a few more generations I get the sense that a lot of people think it'll be, like, WWII era ration cards and a 'we all chip in' kind of vague esprit de corps but that everything else will be more or less the same.

The worst economic depressions in our history would look like a minor economic event compared to the world-redefining policies that would be necessary to get us to a level that could even start talking about reaching ecological equilibrium again.

Oh pip pip it's your old chum Prime Minister Dave here, remember chaps, "We're all in this together!"

Yes. We'll all be holding hands inside the pressure cooker, hoarding commodities on a desert planet till our skins peel off.

I hope you all thought ahead and pre-ordered your end-of-days kits, comrades!

Honestly though, I'm surprised how many people on Holla Forums understand how fucked this situation really is. Stay woke, fam.

While we are on the topic of ecological disaster, you should all look into the book The Sixth Extinction and recent news about the adoption of the Anthropocene as the newest geological era. I am not really convinced that there is any form of social organization that can deal with managing the environment and resources extracted from it, but I would like to be proven wrong. People do not seem to realize that most extinctions in the past took place over many, many thousands of years and that any amount of net damage accrued over say a hundred years will multiply over time. You could have the most perfect ecological communist world utopia and still fail just by taking into account the damage done in ignorance rather than in indifference. And no matter how refined the sciences of such a society would be, it would not be possible to predict the effects of policies on a timescale of a hundred thousand years. That's also to say nothing about how international trade has connected every ecosystem on the planet and through invasive species alone there is already extinction underway, and that over time the entire earth's ecosystem will 'homogenize' to reflect this.

Thoughts my McPhersonite friends?
phys.org/news/2017-02-gas-hydrate-breakdown-massive-greenhouse.html

forgot this one
phys.org/news/2017-03-percent-global-methane-deposits-due.html

Forgot to add my last sentence
Extinction of a species and loss of worldwide taxa diversity is not a reversible state under any measure of time appreciable to humans.

This fucker was right all along.

Here's a postrock soundtrack to the sixth great extinction. RED SPAROWES - At the soundless dawn.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZizMmubcF54

1. "Alone and Unaware, the Landscape was Transformed in Front of Our Eyes" 0:00
2. "Buildings Began to Stretch Wide Across the Sky, And the Air Filled with a Reddish Glow" 8:28
3. "The Soundless Dawn Came Alive as Cities Began to Mark the Horizon" 15:51
4. "Mechanical Sounds Cascaded Through the City Walls and Everyone Reveled in Their Ignorance" 20:11
5. "A Brief Moment of Clarity Broke Through the Deafening Hum, But It Was Too Late" 31:30
6. "Our Happiest Days Slowly Began to Turn into Dust" 37:30
7. "The Sixth Extinction Crept Up Slowly, Like Sunlight Through the Shutters, as We Looked Back in Regret" 43:11

Someone hold me please. This thread is scaring the shit out of me.

Yep, just not in the way he thought he was

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Thanks user

Would killing people like Musk, Zuckerberg etc under the guise of eco terror shift their asses into gear?

Personally I think that even if it's "unlikely" we should be operating in a way that assumes it's not.

When I first found out just how fucked we all were, I struggled to believe it and went on a 3 day research binge which just made me realise we're even more fucked than I initially thought.

Being a communist I'm looking forward to being super smug about how I was right all along as we face inevitable extinction together as a species. Also extinction > FALC tbh, life was a mistake.

There is a lot of push to say that methane clathrates aren't that much of an issue and that it's all fearmongering, but once you really get into it you realise that there is another wave of pushback against this anti-"fearmongering" stuff saying a lot of what they say is irrelevant or bullshit and we're still fucked. Besides there are so many other sources for methance, and so much permafrost that is holding back more than just methane, we're still screwed in the long run even if there isn't a 50gigatonne bomb of methane or w/e.

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How do we make, like, a nuclear bomb, but it's cold. A big bomb but this time it's cold.

degrowth is impossible under capitalism because porky won't give up his profit for a better future. Any country trying this will become a third world shithole. Which means that people will start voting for candidates like Trump who don't even acknowledge climate change. It is either going to be full collapse, revolution, or the entire world suddenly agreeing to not pollute so damn much.

Mt. St. Helens

wew lad

Yeah that's what I mean, the people saying that the methane emergency isn't an issue are full of shit. It is. And even if it isn't we're still fucked. It's just now rather than by 2080 society collapsing, it could collapse a lot sooner.

There is actually a huge cover up of it all too. Look at the IPCC talks on the methane emergency, they were there 2012-15 or so talking about how we could be facing total collapse soon if this happens, then in 2016 they weren't even invited.

Who and where is St. Helen? Just give me the directions and I'll fuck that bitch raw.

To finish my point, be super skeptical about anyone that denies the methane emergency, there's a lot of bullshit going around and a lot of people trying to cover it up.

I mean, even if someone thought it was a low risk issue why would they not be concerned. If it happens we all die ffs.

What would a climate collapse look like in practice? Northern hemisphere has a summer coming up; say we were in the middle of a methane release, what would the coming summer look like?

we survived 90k+ years of ice age with just fire and pelts. there will be no extinction, just opportunity for communism.

Sounds like a plan to me. I've been wondering if making anonymous bomb threats (false ones of course, the workers are juts doing their job) to coal plants is a good way to shut them down indefinitely and should methods like this be widespread, the overall economic output of coal would be far less productive.

We should always be operating under the assumption that we will be in a revolution my mate. Ecology is key to modern day socialism.

I'd like some proofs for this alleged conspiracy to tone down the impact of methane hydrates effects on the environment. Also, me nor the articles I posted never bashed the opposite position as fearmongering.

See and

2nd wave Posadism, except this time even more moronic.

Well it just means what everyone is currently saying could happen on a time scale of decades. So extreme weather, huge storms, and so on.

someone will survive even if it is porky

Not an expert on this stuff or the guy you're replying to, but if you do a little digging anywhere you realize it's a widely regarded fact that Big Oil have people shilling for the fossil fuel industry at every level possible. Even your local small town anti-fracking group has shills. There may even be a person stationed at the town to shill there.

Read the thread.

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Well the time scale is already decades, things could go to shit in less decades is all. And yeah the initial wave of horrible things includes, horrible weather, city leveling storms, major droughts and forest fires, crops not growing anywhere.

Big Oil is out to make people think that climate change as a whole is a hoax. If everyone knew the situation truly were apocalyptic, everyone would be using up all the oil that's left, so it seems more in the interest of them to fund studies like the one in the OP than the ones I posted. Of course I am not saying they funded any of them, but it is certainly not in their interest to actually fund any studies that actually claim climate change has any merit to it.

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>Conclusion: It hasn't happened yet.
I really feel reassured by this.

the IPCC considers a methane hydrate apocalypse to be extremely unlikely. I wouldn't worry about dying to a sudden methane fart.

Better dust off my old leather-tire outfit…

At current temperatures

It's basically. "We'll live. For now."
This is why it's important to keep temperature rises within bounds. As far as we keep it within reasonable levels it's much less likely for the cap to blast off and herald the apocalypse.

They can't live if they can't breathe the air.

Basically a lot of methane is still at high risk of release as so much is shallow and not much of it will be absorbed by the ocean. There are multiple types of methane release from various types of permafrost and the big risk is the shallow stuff, and the blowouts like in
. And iirc correctly the microbes can only gobble up so much of it too, and they'd be completely overwhelmed during a big release. There is also melting permafrost around the entire globe right now release carbon in various forms.

Also the conspiracy to cover up global warming is obviously a thing, I don't really have any complete proof it's happening in regards to the methane emergency though tbh, but certainly feels that way.

I think people underestimate how quickly things go to shit when people don't have a reliable food source. There is no better fuel for revolution or desperation.

"Syria's civil war has left 250,000 people dead, according to the latest UN count, and millions more are either displaced within the country's borders or have sought refuge abroad. And, while the proximate causes were largely political — primarily grievances with President Bashar al Assad, new scientific research adds support to the argument that climate change helped to trigger Syria's descent into violence.

Researchers from NASA and the University of Arizona studied tree rings — a reliable proxy for measuring precipitation — going back several centuries and found that the recent Syrian drought was likely the worst in at least the past 900 years and almost definitely the worst in 500 years.

The World Food Program is currently providing food aid to over 300,000 Syrians in the country's northeast, which is the epicenter of agricultural production. Grain yields last year were half of what they were in 2011.

In this way the Syrian civil war and the hundreds of thousands of displaced, who are seeking refuge in Turkey and Europe, could be seen as a foreshadowing of a much more alarming humanitarian situation should nation's fail to keep global temperature rise under control."
-news.vice.com/article/the-drought-that-preceded-syrias-civil-war-was-likely-the-worst-in-900-years

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releasing carbon in various forms*

basically also CO2 and carbon enriched dirt.

Well perfect timing for the world to go so nationalistic and anti-refugee/immigration. I mean we won't be able to cope with billions of refugees so I guess we just let them all die and blame their religion/culture or call them all terrorists or something.

There's a good interview with Chomsky that touches on this topic: youtube.com/watch?v=h0qdbsE3Jqo

Some 3rd world countries will be most impacted by flooding, and they'll have to come to the countries whose corporations fucked them. If the reactionaries think there's too many refugees now, shit is about to get much, much worse.

Problem is that this will always be true, no matter what spin we give it. No amount of goodwill or revolutionary fervor will conjure schools, hospitals, houses, and food for these people, least of all at a living standard of the first world. A "Refugees welcome" banner will not help with these objective, material concerns.

That is the true tragedy.

They'll be sacrificed for The Greater Good (tm), rich countries won't tolerate being swamped with a ton of Africans, Indians, and Arabs.

Reforming doesn't work and never will. The lever to move the masses is to appeal to their vices.

Ecologically minded people should focus on inventing more hyperefficient drugs, corn syrup/insect protein McSandwich slurries, and VR pornography.

That's what I meant. There is no possible way that we can support that many refugees, and it'll come down to those in developed countries working in their own interest and saying fuck you to them.

But we will need some kind of justification for doing this, even if we don't truly believe it, just to make us not feel so bad. A reason why we should let them all die as well try to live on. I'm guessing you can go by what's happening with the current refugee crisis to predict what those reasons might be.

The Arabs and Africans just be shrugged off as barbarians who couldn't develop any kind of civilizational infrastructure to manage the effects of climate change

Exactly. Also 'muh' terrorism but times a million.

theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/plan-to-refreeze-arctic-before-ice-goes-for-good-climate-change
What about wind powered pumps that push colder water to the top to freeze during winter?

For anyone that wants to read the full study:

twin.sci-hub.cc/558cf2a94fe6cad671e27f62c62d0820/ruppel2016.pdf

I really recommend if you want to get a greater understanding of climate science.

Imagine the level of escapism we'll go to once it all starts going to shit. Makes me think of Ready Player Rne tbh. Just live out your shitty life in VR.

Ready Player One* woops.

Unfortunately I do see this as the conclusion that many world-leaders are reaching.

Think about it. If you were a narcissistic yet sycophantic politician (oxymoron but w/e) who knew the world was about to go to shit in an unprecedented way and you were in a position of power, you'd probably start building walls, reinforcing your military, hiding the truth about climate change and oil dependence from your populace, stockpiling as much oil as possible, and turning your focus inward both in the sense of boosting domestic manufacturing and food production, but also in the sense of engendering a police/surveillance state that is trained to handle massive protests and civilian uprisings…

I see this in America and I see it in some parts of Europe. It's been going on for quite awhile. It is the exact reaction I would expect from leaders who are too cowardly and addicted to power to tell their constituents the truth about the situation our collective species has found itself in and their likely lack of future prospects in a world covered in gas, rolling ever-closer to the match that sets it all ablaze.

It's very frustrating, because there is a ton we would do without ruining the first world societies. Investing in levies and dikes in countries like Bangladesh, building refugee cities in safe countries like Tunisia and Morocco, or even on some of the Greek islands, simply stop funding the ogres in Saudi Arabia, … But right at the moment when we should be engaged in a civilizational push, we're mired in neoliberal circlejerks in Europe and misdirected populism in the US.

I wonder which porkies would sacrifice their profits so their dynasties can inherit what's left of it, or if they'd rather die.

mate

A sufficiently callous governemnt can avoid ruining first world societies without investing in refugee cities or those kinds of things. Just build walls and sink refugee boats.

Accelerationism-Posadism it is then.

Porkies won't stop, reformism doesn't work, and I doubt the revolution - if it comes - will come fast enough to stem the tide.
The only hope is nuclear war or bioterrorism at this point.

In the period of society still barely holding together but it being very obvious to everyone that we're fucked. In that period the levels of escapism we will go to will be immense.

I wonder if studying the time period during the cold war when everyone thought we were going to die to nuclear war will give us an insight. Oh btw nuclear war is still such a huge threat and only goes up as global warming gets worse (imagine the resource wars and imperialism on the horizon).

So, that's how it is.

What resource wars? Managing global warming would be about NOT using resources. The countries that would be unable to feed themselves are the ones in the global south without much in the way of military power. The big military powers (Russia, China, US) will be fine.

The fact that you've been emotionally crippled by events that have yet to unfold as if you looked into a crystal ball is fucking laughable. Depression is supposed to make you stronger, not make you slide into escapist faggotry.

Oh fug, it's Trump!

China has over $9tr GDP and are quickly trying to adapt to climate change, as much of their biggest cities are on the shore. If they fund this project it would give them a lot of prestige, sort of like the space race but for climate change.
ft.com/content/3f1ba5ba-ddac-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6
You may have to google the title to get to it through the paywall, I found it on google. Both articles are pretty recent so at least some people are paying attention and trying to change, even if the neoliberal fuckwits won't listen, there's a superpower that wants to outdo them that has always played pragmatically.

Oh shit. I think you're right on the money.

It's like when the Soviet Union was falling apart and none of the leaders wanted to address it so they went into this weird state of pretending everything was fine, and the public knew something was up but just had to go with it.

This is making me think of HyperNormalisation by Adam Curtis tbh. youtube.com/watch?v=dlhg_QF1cBk

Why live.

That's an interesting question, especially considering that TV was still basically brand new back then. Imagine that situation now, where everyone can surround themselves with televisions, youtube videos, subreddits and video games that encapsulate them in whatever media echochambers they find most comforting.

This is the time we act. The reactionaries will be stumped, out of arguments, and hiding at home away from the madness. This is when we can strike a chord with people and enact real change.

Who are you replying to?

There was a study done recently that showed that even small nuclear exchange involving 100 nukes (about 0.03% of the global arsenal) would put enough soot into the atmosphere to drop the global average temperate by about ~1.2 C for several decades. This would also of course have disastrous effects that would no doubt kill billions, but hell, it'd be preferable to the potential alternative.

I don't know what I'd rather have.

One cup of suicide please

From the comments in that article:
China are going to replace all their coal plants with reliable nuclear ones. The article mentions that they've installed many coal plants in third world countries too. Is China going to give everyone free clean(ish) energy and save the planet?

Next all we have to worry about is the Nuclear Waste Crisis!

You have brain damage

...

I mean people will run out of food and water so they'll fight neighboring countries for their food and water, not like wars over oil and gold and so on.

I mean we as a species will try to escape what is happening. That's just what I think will happen obviously, not a fact as I made it sound. Still though, I struggle to believe I'd be wrong.

Are you trying to say this is the time we fight like the other poster did?

If so I can see that also happening, but the way global warming works is that we can have dug our grave and are just waiting for the last inevitable push that no revolution can prevent.

Also

Told yoy about ecofascism

t. Bookchin

Nevermind you actually were talking about food and water wars. Well maybe you're right in terms of big powers, there will still be wars though, but potentially not nuclear which is nice.

I've been meaning to watch HyperNormalisation for awhile now. Maybe I'll finally get a chance tonight.

But yeah, I think that things are likely worse than we are permitted to know about. Plus most scientific estimations of climate change, methane release, what have you, they are tailored by their authors to not sound too reactionary or 'alarmist'. They know that telling people the truth outright gets them ignored.

I don't know what the event(s) will be that really kick off the shit-tornado, but I do think that the elections of Trumps, the breakdown in the EU, the increasing of nationalism and right-wing groups in the Western world are symptoms of an undercurrent of understanding on the part of the populace that not all is well. Fear seems to be selling better than ever before, and we aren't being sold solutions, only band-aids that keep the status quo afloat for another quarter.

We have to be there to offer these people an egalitarian alternative to nationalism.
Or perhaps something more akin to terrestrial nationalism - something that would likely be labeled as ecofascism.
Because demanding that we don't make the world uninhabitable for our species simply to further enrich like 20 already obscenely wealthy individuals will be portrayed as a bad thing for everybody.

...

So true and so painful.

And yes, the current series of events (Trump, Brexit) etc are certainly signs of something amiss in the world, and that people have no idea about how to solve these issues.

We really need to rethink how to get people on our side tbh, whatever we're currently doing isn't working.

Cheeki.

Why isn't Holla Forums more worried about this than bullshit identity politics?

Every time you mention it they either think it's a faggoty Cultural Marxist Jewish plot to get more taxes out of people and cuck them out of consuming and it's not proven at all, but even in the "remote" case it was real, it's good because they'll get to kill all the non-whites.

Because they're a) scientifically illiterate and b) the implication is that damn near everyone should forego procreation, which is obviously a sino-satano-jewish plot to cuck them.

Really makes you think.

It's ironic given what has been said above, that the mass migrations of refugees from ecologically devastated nations will empower the nationalist/racial right like never before.

Because they're steeped in superficial nonsense, and don't grasp dialectical materialism. Most of the problems they harp about either a) don't exist or b) are attributable to capitalism.

Take the "anuddah shoah" for example. This is easily explained by 1) people having less money to raise families and 2) capitalist alienation causing increasingly atomized people, who are more and more individualistic.

I think that, on a hypothetical level playing field, where humans are rational, reasonably well educated and have easy access to verified information gathered by nonpartisan researchers, where the populace had not been absolutely blasted with about every kind of propaganda imaginable (religious, retail, political, emotional, procreational, etc.) for their entire lives that our message of uniting as equal humans to face the challenges of the world together would be essentially a default position.

Instead we get spooked cattle. Just what capitalism thrives on.

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Nigger what are you talking about? The more dramatic a headline is, the more clicks it gets. That's fucking basic journalism.

That's how clickbait works, yes. They don't mean as in clickbait, as in getting your average craven politician to listen.

Yes it might get more clicks but people don't believe it. The masses assumes it's wrong. I've seen this so many times.

The ideology we must destroy is so widely accepted, and how we currently try to despook people doesn't work. But factoring in all this, how the fuck do we actually get people to our side. I honestly have no idea. Maybe the leftcoms were right all along?

If that's the case then we're truly fucked because of how delayed the effects from global warming are, so an awakened proletariat from ecological collapse will be too late, no matter how good our theory, and how well read our armchair comrades are.

This has basically been the conclusion that I arrived at as well. It's part of the reason I browse this board (among others). I desperately want to see the beginnings of a movement that will bring humanity together and acknowledge the predicament that we're all facing, I just don't know how it's possible under the current conditions (material conditions for revolution and all that…).

People may be able to unite after they watch civilization collapse for a generation or two and the programming and conditioning of the old world recedes, but what shape is the world in at that point? Will there be anything left to save, and if so, how much time would we have before the world is just uninhabitable to humans? I mean, even if every country stopped all carbon emissions it isn't like the positive feedback loops of methane release and ocean warming wouldn't continue.

Most conservative politicians, and likely most porkies, probably don't deny climate change, but are paid to claim to do so by porky.

Telling "the truth" is also bound to have effect on those who do not deny climate change.

The only people who assume it is wrong tend to be those who already deny climate change in the first place.

Methane is 21 times more powerful than Carbon Dioxide when it comes to heating stuff up.

One molecule of methane combusts to form one molecule of Carbon Dioxide and two of water vapor. Both are greenhouse gases, but nowhere near as powerful.

Solution: Set Canada and Russia on Fire

On a shorter time scale it's even more potent than that. Also nitrous oxide is becoming more of an issue, and that is also far far deadlier than CO2 also.

My solution is just to watch anime though, makes it all easier to digest.

skepticalscience.com/toward-improved-discussions-methane.html
TL;DR: this shit isn't happening or likely to happen, thinking it is is apocalyptic fearmongering.

From the last paragraph of the conclusion of the article you posted.

I'd recommend you take a quick look at that same site's list of the top 193 climate denial arguments and their one sentence rebuttals of said denials.

skepticalscience.com/argument.php

Here are a few quotes I pulled out without even having to scroll down the page.

"Global warming will cause mass extinctions of species that cannot adapt on short time scales."

"Negative impacts of global warming on agriculture, health & environment far outweigh any positives."

"The last decade 2000-2009 was the hottest on record."

"Every part of the Earth's climate system has continued warming since 1998, with 2015 shattering temperature records."

"Satellites measure Antarctica losing land ice at an accelerating rate."

I thoroughly advise you to go through that site and continue reading, it seems like a pretty reliable resource.

Can this happen tomorrow please? I have a test on Tuesday.

I don't think it's possible to be a more comforting trips of truth

Fuck didn't mean to sage

This is top level b8. But on the small chance it isn't, you should consider suicide.

That's the worst end though.
Total end of humanity > Fully Automated Luxury Porkyism.

The captain must go down with his ship, even if the passengers have to hold his head under the water themselves.

There's a name for this, but I can't remember it.

Basically the measurements tend towards what measurements other people have made in past.
(So say I estimate 1500 billion people were killed by communism - the next estimate would be say 1400 or 1600, even if their data was suggesting 20 or 2000, because they don't want to go and outright contradict my position so instead they slowly move the data. Obviously the example is hyperbolic, but the tendency is apparently a thing.)

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wtf, who doesnt want to be constantly tripping?

Cool. Then there's no harm in at least trying to develop technology to save ourselves.

Methane only stays in the atmosphere for 10 years max. That should give revolutionaries enough time to seize power. We should be hoping for this.

who cares about climate change communism killed more anyways lol

Not when the methane cycle is destabilized.

That's from years ago and doesn't include new findings and data from the Permian-Triasic extinction event. The whole methane problem is definitely one of the most complex parts of climate change, as both the full methane cycle (including non-natural sources) and the release mechanisms are not fully understood.

IRONIC SHITPOSTING IS STILL SHITPOSTING

I'd like to read what you've been reading Anonrade. Also I don't have institutional access so public stuff please

After reading more I've found another problem with the article. The atmospheric half life of methane is dependent on the level of hydroxyl radicals.
At current rates of emission methane will be reduced within a matter of years. But those emissions are measured in part per million.

The 50+ gigaton scenario would raise level by up to several dozens parts per billion. Which would result in both the rapid depletion of hydroxyl and catastrophic warming. Note that this scenario is not the same as the one described in . Which concerns comparatively *deep* ocean floor sources of methane hydrates, especially those below 20 meters.

This 50+ gigaton scenario is based on Siberian and North American land based and shallow (coastal) sources of methane hydrates.

cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html

The problem really is how far the runaway effect will go. If CO2, N2O and methane emissions increase the way they do now, we are already looking at several degrees of warming. If it then hits a point where land based and shallow permafrost sources of methane hydrates (and a smaller amount of CO2) start melting and forests are incinerated releasing more CO2, we will have an even bigger problem on our hands.

After that it get's progressively worse. Once we hit more than 5-6 degrees warming (Not hard to imagine with 10 billion people living like pre-recession Americans) hellscape Earth will become an inevitability. Hopefully we've had either a major plague or nuclear war by this point to end the madness

Better save up and get that ticket to Mars.

Look up sci-hub.cc and type in the DOI of the studies you want to see.

I swear, we need like version of Global Warming Posadism for the current era.

kek why do you even have the YPG flag? For someone who supposedly stands for social ecology, the only "praxis" you have ever hinted at is running away in supposed defeat or suicide. The annihilist flag suits you better at this point.

Hm. Posadism it is then, boys.

It's a joke you autist. Besides, there's actually not much to do once it hits that point. We have at most a few decades to prevent disaster. I.e. radical degrowth and the collapse of the global economy and current economic system.

So why aren't you genetically engineering strains of drug resistant smallpox then, if rapid degrowth and economic collapse is the only way to avoid a Permian level extinction?

The only way to prevent greenhouse apocalypse is either a limited nuclear exchange or the release of potent bioweapons. Preferably both.

we should focus our energies on posadaism

getting ptsd from conscription just from looking at it, if that's the future I might as well die fighting for the revolution

Why stop there? Why not just nuke every other country?

Hmmmmm

...

I know a way we can settle this without nuking anyone's country.

We will nuke the ice caps.

That's a bad graph. It should show CO2 emissions per capita. Then it would be abundantly clear that this shit is the West's fault.

Hmmmmmm good idea. Nations can't release carbon emissions if they're underwater.

Well, the West and East Asia

shit my bad, this is what I meant to post

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Can we nuke the sahara? Siberia? Mongolia and Kazakhstan?

Nuking Siberia would probably be bad

Check out the article in
ft.com/content/3f1ba5ba-ddac-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6

China seems to have been climate-skeptic so it could make an industry and cash grab. Now it's going green.

That's still misleading because of a stupid choice of scale.
The US is 30% worse than Russia and more than twice as bad as China.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

Washington DC? New York? London?

Indeed. So what is to be done?

wew lads

At least we created tons of value for shareholders

haha we're fucked aren't we

Relax fam, the north pole was only 20 degrees warmer last winter.

Temperatures are affected by the raw figure though, not per-capita.
(Presumably nuke targets would still be selected based on how clustered things are, however.)

This combined with this ->scientificamerican.com/article/only-60-years-of-farming-left-if-soil-degradation-continues/ have me pretty much convinced humanity is all but fucked.
At least I'm thankful I'm completely unable to conceive children. I wouldn't recommend anyone else having children at this point as well.
All I ask for at this point is just that at the very least I'm really old when this happens.

i told you to read bookchin, why didn't you listen?
fuck everything now, we're going extinct

Farming can be made more efficient and 100% sustainable by using permaculture techniques, although it would mean more labour going into agriculture. A shame, really.

China is pretty much all, but guaranteed to be the future of humanity tbh. I hope to god they're just ironically being porkies right now.

there's a way to absorb co2 and turn it into ethanol. also room temperature superconductors would mean a 80w laptop consumes 5w or so instead. but it's all too late now.

Wait wait wait. Everyone is saying "when the methane has escaped we need to nuke some countries"
Well, get a load of this groundbreaking idea: WE NUKE THE METHANE!

good thinking bro

The collapse of ecology necessary to maintain humanity's current population in terms of food, both from the oceans and from land crops failing to grow, would mean a huge die-off of humans would start immediately. When shit breaks down remember that wherever you live, your food has to get shipped to you over great distances. People are going to be stuck with whatever their local stores have in stock at the moment shit starts. Combining food scarcity, the lack of knowledge needed to live off the land (even farmers would have to re-learn this in a new climate), and violence, we're talking about the vast majority of the species being wiped out on roughly the time scale it takes people to starve.

China has so much industry and built up cities on their coasts, they'd be one of the hardest hit if this snowballed.

should we just move to siberia now while house prices are still cheap? we could make a fortune

Temperatures don't give a fuck about national boundaries either.
Per capita figures are useful for deciding who to execute first, since we're really looking to maximize the humans-to-pollution ratio.

Conspiracy tards pls.

If there is going to be mass death regardless of what happens, wouldn't one be justified in fomenting nuclear war since this will, in the long term, preserve a biosphere hospitable to multicellular life?

A look at a random location in Brasil. This is all for growing crop for cattle, which will be shipped to McDonald's to be transformed into barely comestible meat which will in turn clog people's arteries. Of course, only 60% of that food is going to make it to a stomach anyway.
This is your planet on Capitalism.

They got too used to doomsday prophecies from religious nuts that their natural response to apocalyptic predictions has become reflexive. They turn their brain off as a defense mechanism that keeps them away from cults but also keeps them from learning science. This trait is so prevalent I suspect it's genetic.

For reference.

Well…. shit….

I don't want to think about this tbh, but I have too.

Veganism-Posadism-Pol Potism is the way, lads

Yes. Humans will die off in massive numbers. We're talking not just below pre-industrial levels, but pre-agricultural levels. If this happens because of ecological collapse then the same will happen to literally everything else. With maybe a few dozen nukes to the right areas in quick succession, it could be just the humans and some mild environmental impact. Of course, good luck containing the nukes once even one goes off in aggression.

China is cracking on with in vitro meat. Praise Xi.

Yeah, retaliatory launches could quickly get out of control. Perhaps some sort of antiobiotic resistant evolved plant plague is the more reasonable option?

I dunno, I'd rather have a world of say 500-750 million people at western tier living standards (mitigated, obviously.) than 5 billion at Africa tier standards. Do we really need that many people? Why measure life quantitatively instead of qualitatively?

(Though many westerners should be front of the queue for the mulcher. A pure question of numbers works both ways, and I can see little reason to keep the US population so high…)

Fucking word filter. Supposed to be G M O plague

Veganism is a bit extreme but industrial meat is certainly a mistake, as it is poison for both our bodies and our future.
Pic related is a beach affected by green algae is Normandy, France. Green algae die off on the beach, and while rotting, they release toxic gases that can easily kill humans.
The origin of that plague? The massive amount of porks raised in Brittany.

We can easily sustain 10+ billion people with better living standards than those of today. Of course, that requires an efficient system, which rules out any kind of market economy. It means no more wasting.

Top fucking kek I've been here ages and never seen this one. That's rare!

Combustion is exothermic. I'm pretty sure the chemical energy stored in methane would heat the planet a lot more in the short term than if we just let its green house effect happen normally. The faster heating from combustion would kick all the posititive feedback loops into high gear.

Problem with bioweapons on that scale is that they're likely to mutate and spread beyond your original intent, like, to other species. Still, it would be a lot better than glassing everything with nukes.

I'm pretty sure the nuclear powers are going to divvy up people to bully. Who knows, maybe everyone will agree that Turkey is an important strategy location which everyone has fought over for too long, and everyone bombs Erdogan to bits.

Of course, I forgot to post pic related

As a SocDem, I'm only interested in pragmatic solutions like exterminating ~90% of mankind. I'll hear no more about these ludicrous fantasy scenarios where capitalism is a thing of the past.

Some more pictures

lol

Veganism isn't just extreme, it's literally impossible. Fruits and vegetables need pollination, and for - name a staple crop - that requires animal involvement. Under industrialization that means carting pollinators (mostly bees) around farms all over the place. Vegans tend to argue that honey produced in a personal apiary isn't vegan, so fucking with beehives to the extent that happens with industrial farming has to be off the table as well since it's orders of magnitude harder on bees.

Why not just have a much larger population of bees?

Bioweapons have the advantage of largely sparing very isolated, underdeveloped populations, whereas if we launch a bunch of nukes on industrialized areas to stop emissions and reverse global warming via nuclear winter, we will have much higher human losses.

It's what the market demands. I don't know the details of pollination biology or honey production. I imagine mono-crops can't sustain a bee population which is why they have to be moved around constantly. Although maybe it's just cheaper to keep fewer bees and move them around. This kind of thing would be a wholly different matter under socialism to be fair.

Pesticides kill them.

Then we either need to stop using pesticides or engineer some pesticide-resistant bees.

They're dying because of the global warming.

Blog: I had a wasp next in my attic last year, so we sealed the gap. This year the bees have got to it first and found their own way in. The problem is that it's above a window and the gap is smaller, so now the window is constantly full of ANGERY BEES that can't get into the nest. I love bees.

Yeah, that's good. It would be easier to introduce socialism in places where capitalism doesn't dominate life.

Bud, you're missing the point. The current economy is fragile as fuck. If the human population took a serious hit we'd have a major crisis of food distribution. Imagine if tomorrow your local grocery stores and restaurants just stopped getting new shipments forever.

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Pic related is the state of the Amazonas. This is what value for shareholders look like. Then they can snort coke on a hooker's ass. What a great fucking system.

The first solution requires us to stop growing shit in extremely large monoculture plots of land. Monoculture is a mistake, embrace permaculture.
The problem is, again, it is at odds with the needs of a Capitalist society.
The second solution might not be ready in time, especially considering it is probably already too late.

I'll have to disagree here, bees span over very different climates. They die because of the environmental impact of Capitalist activity, but not because of warming itself.

Undialectical af, it would be much harder.

True, but nuclear winter would throw a wrench in not only the distribution of foodstuffs but also the mere possibility of agriculture in general

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Interesting posts fam. Are you from Brazil by any chance?

No the first solution is for people to take to the streets, storm the skyscrapers, pull those fucks off the hooker's asses and throw them out the fucking windows. We could do it tomorrow with a pretty small number of people.

are the hookers thicc?

No, but Brasil is kind of the reference country when it comes to shitting up the world's climate via Capitalism. The only other country with a comparable amount of tropical rainforest is the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but the damage there is lesser.

Even when the revolution is over you have to be smart with these things, although it would obviously become much easier.
I wish this was true, but alas, the porks continue to inject idpol into the minds of our fellows.

Let me rephrase then. It would be best to take the parts of the world where people live as hunter-gatherers without a class system and rebuild society without ever having classes in the first place.

Yeah, I agree then, but just as a last hope.

That's what I was getting at. Porky (collectively speaking) will not scale back voluntarily under any circumstance because any retraction by some corporations is going to be expanded into by others.

Yeah, my point was that the ideological conditions aren't there yet. Although I think if we got all the leftists and pseudo-leftists together we could do it with a small number. Organization is a huge problem, and solving that one will make it easier to solve the idpol problem, since having an organization would make the "old left" seem like a viable option.

Hmmmmm

...

Until some drunk fucker gets upset about the lack of waterfalls and pulls the self-destruct lever, destroying the single crundle soap pillar supporting the entire skyscraper.

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Just play rimworld.

It's not as hard as you might think. Just follow along with one of the tutorials. Don't use a tileset though. The ASCII is more legible once you get used to it.

We're already fucked friend. Enjoy yourself, it's the end of the world!

I live in phoenix arizona

how fucked am I?

China is quite honestly my biggest hope in the upcoming climate apocalypse.

Let's see here…..the current global average for temperature is 13.7°C, or 56.7°F.

If this hypothetical "methane Armageddon" happens and too much methane is melted over sea ice, just plain explodes outwards from thin ice.

Over the next coming years after such a scenario, the temperature would quickly climb to around 40°C, better known in the states as 104°F.

While all of you squabble over identity and race, gender, social justice warriors and reactionaries, we are headed straight for a cliff going full speed, down into a fucking ravine.

We are currently at world average temperature of 56.7°F. If this would occur in even the smallest scale worst case scenario, the global temperature would climb to 104°F. Around double the global average temperature, as the global average. This would mean not only ecological collapse, but mass extinction of fauna on a level humanity hasn't seen since the end of the ice age, and all the consequences that has for mankind

You are hopelessly fucked

There is not yet a scientific measurement to describe how hopelessly fucked the entire planet is

And nobody will care even when it's too late. We will enjoy capitalism, past the point of where such heat creates deadly viruses, deadly bacteria, fungal blooms, algae blooms, past the point where our air is filled with smog, past the point where society begins to collapse at the seems, we will only have peace when all but man has killed itself, and life on Earth continues under a new equilibrium.

So Arizona is fucked in your lifetime, yeah

hmmm

Life recovered after the Permian extinction, right?

Even in the worst case life will recover. Human life might even survive, although only the people wealthy and well connected enough to get a place in a handful of self-sufficient bunkers.

In fact, I wonder if moving to Antarctica would be a viable survival strategy in that case.

95% of all life died. Those that survived, came eventually to be the life we know today.

The Permian Extinction created the circumstances for life as we know it to eventually exist, life drastically different than it once was.

Life will go on.

But the Permian Extinction still killed 95% of all life on Earth.

It took millions of years for life to recover. Even if Dinosaurs arrived not too long after, in a paleontological stand point.

The Triassic and Early Jurassic still felt the consequences tens of millions of years later.

Also, it's worth remembering that Earth only has another few billion years before the Sun reaches the end of its life. If life is going to survive beyond that point, intelligent life needs to get its act together and spread to other planets before it's too late. We can only afford so many mass extinction events.

Are we so sure that this is a worthy goal?

I wonder that too. We humans have the ability to migrate and Antarctica is fucking huge. It is bigger than the US. If a 40 degree increase means an increase across the board, Antarctica should be manageable (with temperature ranging from -15°C to 30°C), although of course we would need to do a lot of terraforming.

But, knowing how complicated climate change is, it will probably get even colder there.

I wanted to see us colonize the solar system, but we're fucked before we even had the opportunity. What can we do? Seems like everyone knows we're gonna die, but it doesn't feel real to them yet.

see

Think about the hell on earth that would be a metro area if the power went out for a couple days, and then people found out food wasn't being delivered into the city.

People generally only miss somewhere between three and nine meals before they do basically anything to get food. Maybe less, if they are the missed meals of somebody's now starving child.
A city like Phoenix is basically the opposite of self-sufficient. How far are you from the nearest farm? Could you find your way there without the internet? How many people do you think it can actually feed? If the food trucks to Phoenix stop running for any reason a lot of people are going to die horrible deaths.

I'd recommend moving somewhere with a lot less people and more access to clean drinking water if you want to have a chance to live in the Great American Wasteland.

I mean, I doubt space has all that much life out there for us to conquer. Earth is a blue marble separated by vast expanse of nothing but minerals, gasses, rock, ice, heat, and void.

It's not like it would be colonialism. One consequence would just be us realizing how vast travel would be. How isolated we would become.

Tribes on planets with different cultures that lost contact with one another. Living out meager existences.

It wouldn't be too bad.

But it wouldn't last.

Whether we like it or not, humanity, every mother and child, every lover, every man, every soldier, every war fought fruitlessly. It all stays here. On Earth. A blue spec of life, in a universe devoid of anything living for light years and light years, that at best, would be unrecognizable, at most realistic, bacteria. Intelligent life could only possibly exist too far for us to even fathom, even in our own galaxy. For all we hope, there is nothing from outside, that can save us from ourselves.

Every human achievement, every love, every friendship, every emotion and everything we come to define as human, will be for not. As humanity goes out in a whimper.

Near biblical hubris, a system we called Capitalism.

His point was that existence itself is suffering. Basically anti-natalism or negative utilitarianism.

I'm still hopeful that technology will allow universal happiness at some point in the distant future.

That is for humanity to decide. Humanity, when confronted with large consequences to their actions, rarely ever make the correct choice to help it, it just gets worse.

This is a threat we've never faced before in such a long time, we didn't even have a system of writing. Perhaps this could be even worse than the end of the Ice Age.

I have no hope. Humanity, and all it means, all it felt, all it ever dreamed of, will drift away. Our buildings Ozymandias like relics, for no one to ponder.

The environment can wait. What is this anime about loli fondling?

And anyone saying this will benefit one group, it is not.

Nature does not discriminate. You can dream of genocide, segregation, you can dream of anything you want.

At the end of the day, you will achieve nothing, as the consequences today destroy humanity's tomorrow. Nothing can save you from the planet itself changing.

Life insurance salesmen will have a great time.
You make a fortune on scared people buying insurance because they've not really thought this through
Society goes with it, relieving you of any obligation to pay out.

Illegalism would be a viable option if not for organized crime being giga spooked. Like, superstitious spooked.

How fucked am I? My guess is they'd lock down and once civilians try to get in for the food they'll start shooting people to stave off shortages. The area immediately surrounding the base is pretty well off and the culture is extremely disparaging toward poormies. Anybody looking to join the people holing up at the base would probably be looked at as moocher who want a handout. And that's not even accounting for the military conducting raids on the surrounding area to build up their stockpiles.

Where will be the safest place to be assuming non-catastrophic climate change that still kills a couple of billion?

What skills should I start acquiring now?

Don't forget the farmers will either be aware of this immediately or learn fast how much demand there is for their shit. If you manage to get to the nearest farm, chances are the farmer(s) will either already be on guard and ready to shoot you on sight or have been killed by someone who wanted their shit and who will kill you even faster.

This thread makes me want to build a bunker, get a gun, can a shit ton of food and stock up on seeds and books. I've been feeling more like survivalism is less and less tinfoil crazy every month for the last two years.

First off, check out /r/redpreppers. It's a subreddit for lefties who don't want to die when the apocalypse comes.

Self-sufficient bunker with as few people as possible who know each other as well as possible and love each other at least fraternally as much as possible. You're almost certainly not gonna have anything like that, so the next best thing would be a secret basement stocked with everything you'd need for long enough for everyone around you to starve, so probably a few month's worth. And you should be as high altitude as possible (sea level), as far inland as possible (inclement weather), and as far from the equator as possible (heat). If/when this shit happens, there are going to be very large portions of the planet that are totally uninhabitable to humans, including a band around the equator. Honestly though, unless some negative feedback kicks in to cool the planet it could just keep getting hotter until it turns into Venus. If at all possible, move to a part of the world with a more "backward" society where people are less interdependent and more able to live off the land they live on (and hope that they won't scapegoat you for arriving just before the apocalypse and ritually sacrifice you).

General self-sufficiency like how to live off the land, make basic tools, purify water, find resources.
Try to learn how to make a hydroponic garden. Collect seeds for plants that grow in difficult conditions.
Learn some combat, both with guns and cqc. If you hunker down there's a very high chance you will run into a scavenger who wants to kill you and take your stuff. Or maybe you want to be a scavenger. Humans would be much less likely to kill each other if we weren't so alienated, but oh well.

It's not even slightly tinfoil if you know how precarious the global economy is. Ecological disaster, war, whatever - something goes even a little wrong and the shipping industry can't move shit? You're going to have hundreds of millions starving to death in a very short time.

Is the general jist of bunker, gun, canned goods, seeds and books (to learn how to do stuff, and not go insane) a decent premise? IDK how to build something bomb-proof, but given a bit of time I could learn to fix up something that's at least secure.

How do us commies find each other when the world has gone the way of The Road?

Is a thermohaline cycle disruption and subsequent Younger Dryas type event from melting ice still viable?

Far enough from a high-value target and it's not the blast you'll have to worry about but radiation. I can't speak to protection against that but you will want a Geiger counter.

Commie symbols will do the trick I imagine. Everyone knows what the hammer & sickle or anarchy A mean. There are plenty of others as well.

Life will survive this upcoming extinction event, humans won't.

Also when you compare the release of greenhouse gases during that event, to what we are doing now…it's completely unprecedented. We're causing this extinction event exponentially faster than the last, we can hardly predict how bad it will be.

Meant for

Sometimes it hits me and it's a very strange feeling. But yeah most of the time it just doesn't feel real, even when I'm arguing with people about how we're going extinct.

Random side point, if a billionaire wanted to couldn't they heavily speed up the Northern Arctic heating/methane release in various ways and kill us all? Or hire scientists to create nuclear/chem/bio weapons?

Surely there are some people out there with so much wealth they can end the world one way or another.

People only seem to talk about billionaires acting out of kindness and saving the world with their immense wealth (pure ideology), but by nature of being billionaires they tend to be rather psychopathic and misanthropic.

There's only one real solution to this. We need lunar solar power. Earth-based renewables will not be enough to generate the surplus energy that we actually need to resequester all the CO2 that we have released.

Should I just kill myself now? The risk of this sort of scenario is getting way too high…

I mean I'm mostly joking but still. I wonder what the suicide rates will be like as we get very close to our demise.

What happened to Venus happened over millions of years due to the escape of hydrogen into space because its molten core cooled enough to cease production of a protective magnetic field. The Earth's internal dynamo isn't stopping any time soon.

The Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum was 8°C higher than today

These are temperatures that haven't been seen since the Hadean eon, the very formation of the planet

Holy fucking shit

We're all fugged

Magnetic field shutdown is conducive to atmospheric blowoff by solar wind, not a hot thick atmosphere like Venus.

Hydrogen is the part of the atmosphere that gets blown off. Venus has a hot thick atmosphere because there's no hydrogen left to sequester carbon.

Hydrogen is not the only part of the atmosphere that gets blown off.

And Venus has a hot atmosphere because there are no biological organisms to break down greenhouse gases into oxygen.

Kind of hard to get biological organisms (or much of any meaningful biochemistry) without hydrogen fam.

Yup.

The extremophiles will inherit the earth.

you mean planting trees?

Hey give the FBI guy his flag back.

Yeah I've heard a lot about how ocean and weather currents are about to get royally fucked up.

All the trees are going to burn mate. I mean new technology that people count on.

...

I love how this thread is turning people into anprim-pol pot-posadists.

It really is the only way.

Enjoy your shareholder value.

They probably could if they wanted to. I assume they generally act out of self interest in the pursuit of profit though. Most people don't want to go out in a suicidal rampage. Let's hope no billionaires decided to wipe out the species. Weird to think about. I'd never considered an overly powerful individual really aiming to destroy the species. Probably something we should watch out for even if it sounds like some kind of James Bond villain's plot.

I think a lot of people are just going to embrace extinction as a good thing. I did long ago.

If I were a billionaire I'd be pretty keen to just end it all faster tbh.

If our choice is between primitivism and death I choose death. Non-existence is preferable to that bullshit.

You know, we wouldn't have to go full anprim if we would scale back population and consumption gradually.

Ceasing reproduction beyond what is absolutely necessary to keep vital infrastructure running, would reduce the world population by ~50% within 50 years.
Combined with rationing remaining fossil resources, ending conspicuous consumptions and planned obsolescence, cutting down on travel and transport, and abolishing factory farming of meat and greenhouse gas intensive agriculture we could drop greenhouse gas emissions to 19th century levels.

Of course people being people, nothing will be done because "muh economy" and civilization will be destroyed this very century.

Primitivism is nonsense anyway. We tried it for the first tens of thousands of years before civilization and we still managed to drive scores of animals to extinction.

Nothing will be done because the fucking bourgeoisie and the state bureaucrats have no incentive to reform their shitbag of a social system. Like every goddamn economic crisis, we fucking walk into that shit and they run around going "HOW THE FUCK WERE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW? MUH FREEEEEEEE MARKET!"

The ecological genocide of humanity will be no different. It'll be ignored even while it's happening. They'll disappear and jail thousands of people just for pointing out what's in motion. And when the long night sets in – when the owl of Minerva takes flight for the final time – by then it'll be too late.

Poetic. It is really what we deserve.

The tragic thing is what we deserve and what will happen are both things we can seize for all of humanity. That was Marx's contribution. It's all the more tragic because we're so self-aware now; we can see it from here; we can arrest our own extinction, only if we can organize to do so. We can see the dialectic in motion, follow our own developmental logic:

We can collectively participate history itself as it is being made.

No longer would we be subject to history; instead, we become history's subjects. That is what was shown to us. And the possibility now seems so dim and small, where as before it was bright, and sharp, and immediate. It loomed large before the bourgeoisie and they brought it low. What hope now remains? A hope hollowed out by despair.

How the fuck do people actually believe this holy shit. Even the most pessimistic scenarios which actual scientists have laid out don't even come close to this bullshit.

It's based on one event following an other.

Before 2-3 degrees shit won't start to hit the fan. It will get bad, but not apocalyptic.
Once we hit a certain point whoever we get a feedback cycle. Soil and oceans will stop absorbing more greenhouse gasses, methane levels stop decreasing due to atmospheric hydroxyl depletion, glaciers disappear causing loss of freshwater sources for hundreds of millions of people, forests (especially rainforests) will dry out and burn, and dead vegetation will add more co2 and methane into the air.
Then once the permafrost starts releasing methane we're truly fucked.

All these "global warming won't be the end of the world!" advocates are technically correct insofar as we stay below a certain threshold. Once we get above that we will inevitably hit Permian-Triasic extinction levels.

Yes I know that. Yet even following this scenario, it's completely absurd to say that it would raise global temperature by 30 degrees, something which the world hasn't seen for probably a billion years. Also adding to that, the effects of positive feedback loops tend to wear off every cycle due to the effects of negative feedbacks that are created as a byproduct.

Aren't you ashamed of ripping Carl Sagan off so shamelessly?

We're talking about levels of greenhouse gasses that would produce effects orders of magnitude greater than we have today. It looks hyperbolic, but that's most cannot imagine it. The last time something like this happened was hundreds of millions of years ago, and that was at a time when the sun was dimmer and industries weren't adding gigatons worth of greenhouse gasses on their own.

Forests burning, desertification, permafrost melting: All of those will not stop the negative feedback cycle. Instead they will they will serve to enhance it.
Of course, once the forests have burned down, the soil has dried up, the oceans are a toxic sludge of algae, and the land-based permafrost has degassed the situation will stabilize.
But at that point, if we're not dead already, it is guaranteed we will be.

Right now we're slowly coasting towards the edge, once we're there the collapse will set in rapidly. Assuming we let it get to that point.
Or of course, we just pump sulfate aerosols into the upper atmosphere, which will end global warming within years. Though we'd still have to worry about resource depletion.

robertscribbler.com/2016/07/18/scores-of-city-sized-siberian-wildfires-spew-2500-mile-long-plume-of-smoke-over-northern-hemisphere/

We've passed the tipping point comrades.

Not sure what you're going with here, but negative feedback is a stabilizer, so if negative feedback is not only stopped, but "enhanced", that is only a good thing.

Your entire prediction seems to be based on the notion of "well, all this shit is bound to happen so it's gotta be the end of days" in contrast to actual scientific models who put the worst case scenario at around 6 degrees celsius by 2100.

If that is methane burning then it should turn into carbon dioxide.

You mean the scientific models that scientists admitted are downplayed to not stir up panic or get them ignored, like we discussed in this thread already?
Did you literally just parachuted in?

Even as a councilist, I agree. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Fuck climate change deniers. They will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

That seems to be a somewhat large number. This has most certainly happened during the Earth's past in period's of higher temperature, especially outside of ice ages. Why didn't released methane result in these sorts of ridiculously high degree increases then?

Did you even attempt to read the journals that are comparing such a scenario, where more and more methane is released into the atmosphere that works together with what greenhouse gas we already have? To produce something even WORSE than what was predicted would happen?

Sure, this is hypothetical, this would occur only if enough methane lakes exist, and our green climactic change melts them over.

But let's just consider for a moment, IF such a scenario were to happen. The example used of 50 gigatons of methane is released into the atmosphere; it would equal the output of Carbon Dioxide emissions from the mid 19th century to the very day right now.

Imagine that, that powerful a green house gas suddenly giving the Earth the equivalent of over a century and a half worth of Carbon Dioxide.

And it would be all of man's fault. Nothing would save you from that, after the ecology collapses, after the seas start dying in blooms of fungus and algae.

We would all die. There's no argument to be had otherwise, read the article before posting, it has citations.

This would be the penultimate example of the hubris of man to think themselves stronger than the planet they exist on. The planet, under the right circumstances, could wipe us out in ways we aren't aware of at any given moment over a large period of time.

Considering this world under Capitalism is functioning, I have a suspicion the planet will receive enormous blow back from it. This is just one example of how fucking up like this can lead to unforeseen consequences.

That's a question I can't fully answer, as I'm not an expert by any means, but Methane "burps" in Siberia being more and more common as the ice melts back into the sea. Maybe geologic activity is responsible, who knows.

But its occurring, and it is occurring fast. The question is, when it will end. And we don't have that answer.

I like it

We are past the point of anprim being possible, by the time it is. Capitalism will have vanquished the Earth of life by negligence so fucking royally that you will live in a scorching toxic wasteland inhospitable to human life. The ozone would all but be a memory. The sun would hit the Earth directly, the best you could do is dig underground. That's how life on Earth would adapt over the coming millions of years, just escaping the surface. I doubt this would be enough, life is a stubborn thing, but this event hasn't been seen since even the Mesozoic when the god damn Dinosaurs roamed the Earth. This precedent is before even that. The closest would be the Permian Extinction.

When nobody else is there on the surface living, you won't be exempt.

The overall amount of permafrost that will melt and the emissions released by them vary wildly in different reports. A study posted earlier in this thread said that only about 3,5% of the permafrost would melt and release the equivalent of 60,000 million tons of carbon, or six gigatons, by the end of this century.

If anything I'd say it still remains controversial.

The estimates for how much it would cost to replace current energy infrastructure with solar lunar power are about $1 trillion for the United States and $2 trillion for the whole world. It can be done if we were to funnel the obscene amounts of money we waste on defense spending.

Yeah bad choice of words on my part, I meant to imply that this cycle was negative, rather than the reverse.

You're also right that models predict 6 degrees, but that is already way beyond acceptable levels.

It's basically brighter sun + industrial greenhouse gasses on top of natural methane emissions that make for a very deadly combo. Together it pushes the whole thing beyond the Permian threshold and would turn Earth into a cousin of Venus.

In other news, the Trump administration has embraced geo-engineering.
I guess this was the plan all along.

archive.is/h2ZEl

Now we just have to hope that it's feasible and won't end up destroying the ozone layer as some predict. Because in that case, everything will die due to 10,000 times stronger UV radiation.

nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/world_avoided.html

That's hoping we last that long before nuclear war where to break out. Although that would most likely be too damaging for porkie and his pals.

Interestingly that and geo-engineering are the only way to save the world.

The very fact that enough methane lakes are being discovered, gives me enough pause to consider, as was considered in what the article sided; just what would be the consequences of finding more as the ice retreats further and further back?

The climate is extremely delicate on its own, but we're effecting it in ways already hazardous to life. If this were to happen, I have no doubt whatsoever the consequences for the climate would be apocalyptic.

You can debate that, I'm sure people are, but right balance for life on Earth to exist as it does, exists under a set of circumstances several millions of years have arrived at. We, and most other forms of life, are evolved to the climate that lead us to succeed. In fact the end of the Ice Age all but lead to mankind becoming a global invasive species.

You don't realize how much life can simply go extinct by even the slightest change to the atmosphere. What we are talking about is not a slight change, it is an extinction event larger than the extinction event we currently have monopoly on.

Do not be so naive to believe that the Earth, it's ecology, it's atmosphere, and what we call "perfect conditions" can change quite fast. The Earth is delicate, prehistory shows it. History shows it. Fuck up the way things are, all life adapted under the conditions of a climate that no longer exists would cause a mass extinction.

There were mass extinctions in prehistory over far less.

I suppose the coming nuclear holocaust would plumet the earth global temperature down to a large degree.

earth's

Only world peace and the defeat of the global military-industrial complex can save us.

How does one respond to the knowledge of how unbelievably fugged we are?

Relish in it. Embrace the sense of doom.

Do like me and selfishly kill yourself before Capitalism makes you burn alive.

It made me respond by making me develop a seething hatred for anyone above 55 yo

I guess the proactive response would be learning about biotech and trying to develop a really deadly virus

churchofeuthanasia.org

Torture the baby boomers to death

OH OH OHHH
TUMBLING DOWN TUMBLING DOWN TUMBLING DOWN

Let us know how that works out for you.

What are light reflecting aerosols or whatever? Are we going to be living in the fucking Matrix surface world? Mordor?

God, kill me. I'd rather have that than total extinction, but how is this kind of thing going to effect crops?

No. Aerosols bounce rays of sunlight off the atmosphere, which mitigates warming. You people see doom and gloom in absolutely fucking everything.

They reflect sunlight, effectively increasing the Earth's albedo and decreasing thermal absorption rates.
However the effects of large scale sulfate atmosphere seeding are not yet understood.
Some argue that they could destroy the ozone layer in presence of water vapor, therefore more testing is needed.

Another side effect might be extreme droughts. But at least we wouldn't die inside a pressure cooker.

the crop failures caused by sulfate aerosol geoengineering would probably kill hundreds of millions

Complaining about people being scared about worsening conditions is more annoying than complaining about being scared.

Do a favor and neck yourself a broken vertebrae.

There are plenty of ways we can still avert climate change but the problem is none of them will happen in capitalism because of the tragedy of the commons and individual greed and corruption. We will all die just for some imaginary stock numbers to go up.

SPAIN AUTIST I SWEAR TO HECK
There are numerous debunkings and glimmers of hope offered by China in this thread, it's just that nobody chose to drive the conversation that way because it would mean that there's something left fighting for and your feeling that nothing can get worse is completely unjustified.

If things cant get any worse that means I can't be hurt any more.

Isn't China basically just devolving into capitalism, surely the same problems will come to exist there as in the west once their middle class fully emerges

See, I would have read the rest of your post, but you were so blatantly wrong right at this point that the rest is not even worth reading.

Please, there are several posts about how things can be turned around. Including with geo-engineering.

The fact that the Trump administration is looking into fixing the issue this way is a positive sign.
Even if sulfate aerosols prove to be too disruptive, it will set a precedent for future research. (Which is now blocked by the UN moratorium on geo-engineering, but which the administration is going to ignore.)

And warmist fantasies ignore negative feedback effects.
It is a product of human arrogance and overestimation of our ability to influence something as gigantic as the Earth, which has built in thermostatic systems, the arrogance of thinking that human plaque could threaten the existence of the biosphere other than through mass nuclear deployment.
Human contribution to atmospheric CO2 is tiny and the planet (Gaia) will correct it.
Obsession with global warming is nothing more than fear of death politicised. Guess what, you are going to die anyway, whether or not humanity goes extinct.
Accept it, accept that your awareness will never be translated in silica and stop obsessing about death, you are missing out on your incredibly brief time on Earth.

Hmmm

"Catastrophic, widespread dissociation of methane gas hydrates will not be triggered by continued climate warming at contemporary rates (0.2ºC per decade; IPCC 2007) over timescales of a few hundred years. Most of Earth's gas hydrates occur at low saturations and in sediments at such great depths below the seafloor or onshore permafrost that they will barely be affected by warming over even 103 yr. Even when CH4 is liberated from gas hydrates, oxidative and physical processes may greatly reduce the amount that reaches the atmosphere as CH4. The CO2 produced by oxidation of CH4 released from dissociating gas hydrates will likely have a greater impact on the Earth system (e.g., on ocean chemistry and atmospheric CO2 concentrations; Archer et al. 2009) than will the CH4 that remains after passing through various sinks."

pm22100.net/docs/pdf/enercoop/energie/gaz/130316_Methane_Hydrates_and_Contemporary_Climate_Change.pdf

Fuck off boomer trash.

China has devolved into capitalism. They're automating everything, making cattle farming redundant, turning everything green and converting all their coal plants to stable nuclear reactors. Does this sound like a country with a planned continuation of sweatshop labour?

Hydrates remain solid under pressure, hydrostatic pressure increases at the rate of about 1 bar (14.5 psi) per 10 meters of depth in water.
Hydrates are big problem in the oil production industry for exactly this reason, they clog pipes and need to be removed with special equipment.

Scary, isn't it? Knowing that you will never live in a computer.

Right now yeah, they are being run by technocrats who can take a longer term view, but I don't know if that system will survive economic changes in the country

I guess it is an admission of the part of the Trump admin that there is a significant problem, at least. Reminds me of Obama talking about recieving the daily briefing, and they would always have to hear about how the climate situation was getting worse.

What I don't get is how psychotic you have to be to hear about possible climate catastrophe that your kids will likely experience, and not react in their interests at least. I know these people are rich, but what if a nuclear war breaks out in a destabilized world with hundreds of millions of displaced people? You really going to just hide in your bunker while major cities evaporate and say "living the good life" as though the world isn't a horrifying hell hole? Wouldn't it be better to just act in mutual self-interest and do your best to avoid all of this?

I don't want to live forever, I just don't want to destroy the planet. Your hippie gaia shit is meaningless, we can absolutely change the planet's climate, as we have done to a relatively small extent already. Why would more pollutants not have a greater effect?

...

Reminder that not even the elites want to live in NORAD for millennia.

The Gaia hypothesis is just a way of embodying the concept that the planet has active control systems built in (,through the biosphere.) and actively responds to keep the environment within the bounds of life sustaining climate.
It takes a special kind of autism to take it literally.

This is already an apocalyptic future.

They might not want to but they have lost control of the system of capitalism, the markets are fully in control. Human beings have been sidelined in the world economy. I truly believe that being ruled by a dictator would be better than the market because at least he can make decisions and have goals.

I would rather die fat, happy and old than from starvation. You're a fool if you think it couldn't come to that even in our lifetimes.

I don't think anyone honestly wants to live forever. Nothing could be more painful than an eternity of human consciousness.

Yeah this is nice and all but it's not meaningfully true. There is no evidence that the earth will somehow fix itself and save us. Probably the earth will eventually repair itself after we're gone but not in any kind of time perceptible to humans, likely hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Maybe you should have thought about that when you pushed Bandaid in the 80s.
Overpopulation is a direct result of circumvention of negative feedback controls on African and Asian fertility (famine, drought, disease.)
They tried to control it by banning DDT but ultimately "suicidal humanitarians won.
Now reap the consequences.

The existence of physical equilibria in the biosphere does not rule out the possibility that unchecked human industry could cause a mass extinction event

You forget about monopolisation and capital accumulation, which allows the Musks and Zuckerbergs to finally fulfill their complexes, along with the ideological PRC. I predicted it earlier and everyone ignored me, but the climate race is the new space race. The ability to plant hundreds of thousands of wind powered ice pumps on the north pole with a USA/PRC flag will be the moon landing of our time.

How much evidence so you need? Where do you think fossil fuels came from? They are natural carbon sequestration systems.
CO2 (plant food) gets high, vegetation growth explodes carbon is sequestered.
Oceans get warm, cloud cover increase due to evaporation, high albedo reduces solar input, temperature decreases.
This is called negative feedback in instrumentation science and is the core of every control system.

Except westerners have done the vast majority of the damage to the climate so far and created the lion's share of pollutants. Americans still create like 3 times more pollutants per person than China and Dubai creates like 10 times more per person. It's got nothing to do with race. Now fuck off pol and go eat a bullet.

Just let the brown people die huh? Why am I not surprised.

Sure, but if we really cared about it then the gross polluters would be targeted. Western "soccer moms" can use their Hive app to turn the heating down 1 degree in their millions, it is a drop in the ocean compare to growth in Eastern fossil fuel consumption.

I certainly hope so. Would like our species to live long enough to see socialism.

That reply was in response to a post about overpopulation, not per capita pollution.

Recommended and fun watching for anyone who thinks Earth well fix itself in any meaningful way (for us):
youtube.com/watch?v=UmDrLaebUa4

Life has ruined itself a ton of times before.

Yes, Americans and Europeans (and the middle east). Fuck off with your race shit.

Life has never "ruined itself", your fear is not over " life" it is over human and specifically human survival, which was the point of my initial post.
This is politicised death anxiety masquerading as altruistic environmentalism.

Ice pumps? You talking about the tech that is supposed to keep the ice frozen, or are you talking about energy opportunity?

What use is a bunch of wind energy if the planet has apocalyptic droughts and scarcity of water? Seems like the market would be collapsing and all of the nice bullshit that the Zuckerbergs enjoy spending their money on would become scarce.

"Wahh wahh racist."

So intbri, how many beers have you had?

Yeah which is being intellectually dishonest. Per capita pollution is more important.

Lol you are the same guy who is whining about muh africans and asians overpopulating. Just because you didn't say it in that post doesnt make me stupid

How the fuck is responding to the point of the post "dishonesty"?

Grow up.
Every Western country is already doing its part to reduce world population, as none has a fertility rate over 2.1
But of course, ignore the explosive population growth, every person of whom is going to burn more fossil fuels.
Worry about that 1 degree on your central heating.

I linked it further up but everyone opted to ignore it because it was a practical solution that didn't involve cradling their depression
theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/plan-to-refreeze-arctic-before-ice-goes-for-good-climate-change
Literally the only other person in that chain is Yugo (the very last of the very end), I am repeatedly replying to myself trying to save this thread from manic depressives.

I never mentioned Africans or Asians at all.
I referred to geographical areas.
You see race everywhere, like a middle-ages Catholic is haunted by witches under every bed.

Well forgive me for not wanting to die prematurely. Because you don't seem to be denying that it is an acute possibility, yet not facing what kind of coercive measures are needed to face it that are not being taken.

It's god damn techno gnosticism heresy. Ice pumps, get outa here with your snake oil.

Why is per capita pollution more important?

I am not that dumb pol. You cannot piss on me and tell me it's raining. Your whining about being called out only confirms it more.

Of course it is a possibility. Chaotic systems can behave in unpredictable ways when you push them too far, leaping into an extreme state of equilibrium.
My salient point is that everyone pretends their concern is altruistic when it is very personal and fear-based.

You know what's not in it? Actual numbers on how many °C it shaves off. Because it's just wildly throwing things against the wall in desperation, plans like these. Here's what we KNOW works: carbon taxes, output limitations, prohibitive trade barriers for all those who don't get in line. You ain't gotta invent shit.

Any racist statements are purely a product of your imagination. Perhaps part of the problem is your squeamishness over reining in Eastern excesses.

Please. White people died for millenniums until it became clear that cramming dozens+ multi-generational households into small unsanitized houses is just bad practice.
If populations in the west had continued to grow at the boomer rate of the 50-60s things would be a lot more miserable now. Europe even had famines all the way up the late 1940s.

In the west population growth stopped because civilization ran out of space, and there was no one to provide food aid to prevent famines. That combined with family planning prevented a Soylent Green scenario.

Countries like Egypt could have been first-rate countries, with most of its energy coming from renewable sources and possessing almost unparallelled food security.
Instead it's now an overcrowded polluted powder keg. And that goes for a lot of countries in Africa and Asia.

Family planning and reproductive health should have been a per-requisite for any form of aid. Which should have been spend on making those countries economically independent. Rather than as a political tool to keep them in line so porky could plunder their riches.

Climate change is not entirely unpredictable, that's the entire point, you utter imbecile.

Except as stated in this topic, the Chinese have used their initial dirty start in industrialisation with coal etc to leapfrog ahead to renewable/nuclear plants, something which the west has not done even though it's had literally a 100 year head start. America could have gone zero carbon 50 years ago if there was sufficient political will. So no, I'm not embarassed.

Get over yourself humanitarian. You couldn't give a fuck about those people, or how the west's neo-colonialists band-aid policies have set those people up for ruin and a life of misery.

Your "humanitarian" aid has condemned entire nations to poverty, and - in the future of climate change - mass death and genocide.
Boomers. Not even once.

That's not where the growth came from, it came from indigenous policies that greatly improved health on their own. Don't flatter yourself, mighty whitey.

Eh, I don't know that wanting to avoid a clathrate gun scenario is entirely motivated by self preservation, considering it would in all likelihood also snuff out huge numbers of non-human species

The same people behind the pouring of gasoline on the fire of 3rd world fertility rates, also led the mass campaign and scaremongering over nuclear power.
I also like how you imply that developing nations use of fossil fuels has somehow stabilized, when it is growing every year.

Yeah honestly at this point if I could trade the extinction of all humans for no more animal extinctions I might do it. I would honestly stop caring that much about nuclear war if it only affected us. It's not fair for the other species to pay for the sins of mankind.

okay i would like to address this since you keep spouting it. how exactly is the third world doing anything other than what the west did previously, according to a predicatable model of population?

true enough, and I hate hippies for that, but there we go.

In China they are already starting to move away from it, and the other third world countries are slaves to capitalism just like the west, so I wouldn't expect them to fix anything. I just think it's stupid to be triggered by the scary non whites ruining the world when westerners are the ones who originated this problem, did nothing about it, and are still the biggest contributors to it.

Mostly motivated by self-preservation, but so is biodiversity. But I don't see where the problem is with that. Fear of an avoidable future of being surrounded by chaos, uncertainty and violent or premature death isn't a bizarre response, nor is it necessarily a fear of death in general. I think most adults are aware of and at ease with their mortality, but much like the rest of their lives they desire a degree of control. People would like to make decisions about their lives, including their deaths. Mass famines, war and refugees causing unrest isn't the world most people want to bargain on, because it represents a huge lack of control.

I mentioned several things that could help throughout the chain of replies. The problem is this thread is full of a bunch of depressive roleplaying faggots who would rather cry here for 400 posts then let their bullshit spread out into other threads than even let the thought occur to them to egg on Western academics to start visiting Chinese embassies. Got a better idea that doesn't involve changing the entire political structure of the planet within 5 years?
If we spent as much time harassing the people with the ideas to solve this situation to go to China instead of complaining about entropy then we would see visible effects. I'm not getting my hopes up though purely because of the lack of constitution among the members of this board. I bet the next thread will have a "Self care" motif in the OP rather than a "Take action" one.

How would that even achieve anything? Western bourgeois democracy has completely failed. It is incapable of making any decisions that don't have a short term benefit and zero carbon doesn't. It's a system run on corruption and money not hope for the future.

Nah I agree fam, we should agitate for both political and technological solutions

Except that you don't advocate a single action beyond "it'll be fine, Elon Musk will solve it, people chill!" Like you are too good to feel any kind of sense of urgency.

>MUH BOURGEOIS DEMCRACY
L.A.R.P L.A.R.P L.A.R.P

You and the spanish guy are utter faggots tbh, read my posts again and give a proper response.

First off, academics have little to no effect on anything, otherwise we wouldn't have an orange con artist with a subhuman Autism Level in charge of the most powerful country in the world, academics already know we have to do something, you have to get the politicians to do something, and that will never happen unless you happen to have $100 billion stashed away somewhere to use as slush money.

What, you were gonna sell me more ice pumps? Or maybe an aerosol additive for jet fuel. Can'yt wait!

I'm not white.

Was it indigenous policies that agitated against contraception and family planning, or was it white Europeans with their "missions to civilize"?

Overpopulation destroyed Africa's food independence and made it ripe for exploitation. Meanwhile scores of tyrants have been propped up by white porkies pretending they were protecting the continent from nationalists and "communists".
A great extend of the aid given is used to undermine the independence of African countries, which in turn serves as a major tool in feeding the capitalist system.

This idea of Africans being some sort of feeble minded feral animals that were "saved" by whiteys needs to die.

wtf i love hillary clinton now
You are completely missing my point. I am arguing for beginning a second space race concerning climate change. We need to redirect people with the know-how and background to the Chinese, who have been (possibly cynically) skeptical of climate change up until this point. This in the end is the only thing imageboards are good for and you're complaining about how powerless you are, get a grip, the internet has only ever been good at sending lots of emails and sharing links at the end of the day. I am giving you an option for what you can do and you're just sitting there complaining imageboards can't undo everything in the world.

Thanks for quitting the conversation, you've not added anything anyway

I perfectly popped every one of your bubbles. You have nothing but techno-optimism.

The west, for all intends and purposes, has fucked up every region it has touched in the last several hundred years. Leading to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, famines and the destruction of countless nations and cultures.

Look at Japan, Ethiopia, Thailand and eventually China: They survived just fine without (and in spite of) western occupation and colonialism. (Ethiopia was eventually ruined twice by imperial powers)
This paternalistic aid serves only one purpose: Fostering dependence, undermining local independence and cultivating the condition that precede exploitation.

I don't think the idea that we should be pushing for technological recourses while we also work toward socialism is techno-optimism. Seems more like common sense to me. We should strive to walk and chew gum at the same time because there's no reason not to.

I never liked Clinton either but at least she would have made it look like she was doing something about the problem.

WHAT PEOPLE?

The people in charge either don't care about climate change or are powerless to stand up to corporate interests because of money in politics. Who is going to build the west's nuclear plants exactly? It can only happen with government intervention and good luck getting anyone in government to listen to you. I mean for fucks sake you might as well write a letter to the US representatives asking them to consider communism. There is no statistical relation between public opinion on a topic and what congress does about it whatsoever, but there is one between what the rich pay them to do and what they do about it. Shocking I know!

upworthy.com/20-years-of-data-reveals-that-congress-doesnt-care-what-you-think

Holy shit this guy says "uhh" a lot.

I guess? But those will be pushed without any input from us. Leftism has little to add. Militate for bigger science grants, big techno infrastructure projects? Sure, but… we can't get that now on anything already. I mean, once we get to the stage where we can throw money at that, already halfway there.

I want to fight to make everyone die though.
The years ~1975-2008 are a testament to the fact mankind does not deserve to live, that human beings are irredeemable scum.
We do not deserve communism, we do not deserve even barbarism. We will hopefully get what we do deserve.

i really, really don't take neoliberalism well.

I consider myself a pessimistic optimist, ie. I try to believe that mankind can do better and am constantly disappointed by them/us and made miserable. It's truly the worst possible timeline.

...

You are now aware that this post was written by Dr. Jill Stein

Be the change you want to see in the world, friendo.

No you didn't, dumb faggot.

You both need to fuck off back to reddit, disgusting attention whores.

Why don't you actually try to rebutt what I said, you stupid piece of shit? Do you honesly think if a letter writing campaign was enough to save the world that someone wouldn't have done it? I mean fuck I'm willing to try something that has even a 0.1% of working, so why don't you explain how exactly your plan would work? You can't even tell me who we should be trying to influence.

...

You contact the academics like in theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/plan-to-refreeze-arctic-before-ice-goes-for-good-climate-change directly, and urge them to contact the Chinese embassy. Obviously the PRC can't reach out to them, but they're stuck in the liberal system of bullshit. If the Chinese were to start hoovering up people that know what's going on then we would stand a far better chance than them writing papers that are ignored by governments in the West that are paid off by oil companies.
As soon as a few of them start to go, the West will panic at this concerted effort to drive people towards China on their homeland, and then they will be forced to act.

Capitalists don't care about mutual interests. It's anathema to their ideology

None of that is an inherit signal of conscious activity or evidence of your hippie daydream.

Who. Would. Have. Thunk. It?

Your entire bullshit plan hinges on the notion that governments actually *care* about what their constituents want, what is best for them or what is best on long term, when, if you were anything other than a spooked liberal, it`s plain to see that none of those influence politicians in any meaningful way. They are beholden to capital, not you.

Ignore many positive feedback loops, not all. Woops.

Look into previous extinction events, and then look at how much faster we're releasing green house gases, and tell me you don't think anything will happen. Also obviously there are negative feedback loops, otherwise the Earth would be like Venus by now. It's just these effects are weaker and slower acting, atleast for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years.

I'm glad I'm going to die and not have my consciousness uploaded, and I'm also glad humanity is going extinct, to be perfectly honest. But I guess you're trying to say that I only care about global warming cos it might make my life significantly worse when I'm older through collapse of human civilisation? Well yeah of course I'm terrified of that, we all should be.

All of you faggots need to start permanently posting on /qq/ instead of here. The amount of posts in this thread that could be said in one single whining post is astonishing. I hope the north pole does a massive fart and you all die.

That's pretty much what's going to happen anyway. We've signed our own collective death warrant.

So you wanna cause brain drain on the west to destroy the US empire by importing scientists to China?

This would only work if China was a better place and porky americans are way to dumb to learn a second language.

Its a nice plan but China isn't even remotely communist so I don't see this doing anything other than strengthening a future Chinese empire.

Furthermore in a now globalized economy nationalistic based brain drain is unlikely to happen. The zuckerbergs of the world are living on on private islands with private security, collaborating across the internet, not moving to China to start a new life.

IMO its more likely that there will be a revolution at home devaluing currency to the point where the Zucks private army turns on him and makes the island into ANCAPISTAN. I mean, mercenaries would ya kno.

the methane meme gun isn't going to happen, if you would take a bit more time than to read the intro paragraph on the wikipedia you would understand

We're fucked whether it happens or not.

wtf I love Posadism now.

Also we need a sweet name for that ideology, I'm almost willing to unironically support it.

bump.

This thread has left me legitimately shaken. I'm actually starting to get upset with people IRL over not taking climate change seriously, or thinking we'll "innovate" our way out of this with some bullshit science fiction technology.

That's the neoliberal dream. 'Muh futurism' and idolising Elon Musk and similar people.

The fact that people still defend capitalism, and that so few talk about global warming, shows just how fucking brainwashed we all are.

I suppose atleast us leftists tried to fix things but man, it's sad no one will ever be able to escape all this fucking ideology and misery (except through death).

Meant for

Also I found out all this shit like a year ago and shook me up a lot. But eh, just embrace extinction as a good thing. I'm currently wondering if going full survivalist is still LARPing at this point or if I should consider it.

this moved to page 19 fast. i guess we now know which thread is causing the spam attacks…