Owners don't do anything but collect checks

Ah, you mean the stupid fuckers who owe more to the bank than their businesses are worth? The guys who fail about 85% of the time? The dumbasses who call themselves bosses while actually being de facto employees of the banks?

Oh, and did anyone else notice that they were factoring part-time employees into their calculations?

wages are not compensation for labor done

workers are not paid based on their work

wages are the cost of the reproduction of labor power

Not to mention the fact that overtime for employees is strictly limited. The poor bastards cannot afford to live, yet their "bosses" will not allow them to have longer hours because that would cut into the profit margins that they need to use to make payments to the bank.

What do you mean? How do banks do that?

Well yeah.
Now tell me, say, shareholders work 700 times harder. (And in turn, eventually, tell me that 95% of the financial sector shouldn't be bulldozed into the sea.)

I mean, it's hard being a currency speculator. The problem is it's also socially cancerous. You don't reward a traitor. unless he's betraying your enemy in your favour obviously.

That only covers wage slaves. In tech it's common to work 70 hours a week, and usually the executives work around the same and the board / owners don't work at all. Programming and engineering are much harder work as well. This is true of every company I've been at.

The small business "owners" that retard ancaps and lolberts worship have to acquire all of their initial capital from banks and other investors. As such, even though the wannabe owner holds the paperwork, he loses everything as soon as he misses a payment. In addition, interest and every unforseen event keeps the job creator from just digging into the principle for years. In the meantime, while the bank collects the payments the poor sucker works himself and the other workers as much as possible while keeping overhead minimized.

Now, it is exceeding likely that before he manages to get too deep into the principle the business will fail. This allows the investors to sieze everything and sell it off to another dumb bastard who will continue to work and make payments to them while they do nothing productive. Entrepreneurship is a hilarious scam on par with pyramid schemes.

I meant
How do banks prevent them from having longer hours?

Small business owners work twice as hard because competition gets harder and harder due to high costs and corporations.

That doesn't mean the system works, quite the contrary. It means if you want to start a business you have to break your back and probably get a burnout while the corps overtake everything eventually

In that case it's pretty fair that they get only twice as much amirite?
That's not how you should calculate someone's exchange value for labor. Sure, don't give them millions but the sheer amount of labor time doesn't quantify a just reward. Responsibility and contributing skill is more important

Forgot to greentext

Do they work or do they "work"?

Even the rare few successful entrepreneurs have to keep overhead to a bare minimum since there will be next to no profit margin in the early years. The profit margin needs to be there to keep the bank from taking everything. In order to accomplish this while still getting all the labor they need, "bosses" have to get creative. A common method is to exploit part-time labor. Part-time employees do not have to be given benefits, which means that their labor comes at a significant discount from that of full-time employees. A part-time employee's hours are limited, since giving them more hours would make them full-time and thus entitled to benefits. Another method to limit overhead is to minimize overtime. Since overtime requires at least a 50% boost in a full-time employee's salary for that period, it is not usually cost-effective except in emergency situations. This often leads to calculations as to whether or not it is better to hire more workers to meet production needs during peek periods of production.

So yeah, effectively it is the necessity to maintain a profit margin.

Business owners don't work twice as much as employees. Getting lunch with clients, going to events, filing paper work, phone calls are not WORK

I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Especially in the modern business environment where everybody wants to backstab you and is a general cunt

no tankie back into your enclosure, humans are talking. I'll throw some shit if i need a lesser ape's opinion on labor

It's work. It's just not productive work.

The value of meritocratic systems? What value, exactly, to whom, exactly, is there in a system that, in practice, inevitably becomes an epistemically closed circle-jerk of a self-contained, self-defending judging class whose arbitrary, counterproductive personal choices are elevated to moral imperatives?
Your interest in being the boss doesn't even rate as a public interest, so spare us that liberal bullshit.

So it's symbolic labor…?

Dude, that's like 1% of the labor force. And yes I agree that people who work physically hard should have good limits on their work hours, earlier retirement, better pension and extra bonuses if they do night shifts, etc.

My point was that managing is labor is well, mental stress is real, studies even show that constant exposure to mental stress deteriorates your health even more than physical stress which might even be healthy to some degree

Also
Take your meds you skinhead

Lmao at the tankie thinking its sapient, you don't even have a sense of self. Calling someone else mentally unwell is 100% projection when you want to be cucked by the state and get off on brutalizing other people

kys liberal

...

I remembered my shitpost flag a moment too late.

Kulaks aren't people.

Its actually close to 50% of the population that does some kind of manual labor as part of their job, if we include nurses/janitors/maintenance/service industry people lugging shit around its over 50%.

White collar workers aren't proles in the same way that blue collars are. Managers and highly skilled labor literally are not proles. They are not useful for revolution and should be gassed

Authoritarians aren't humans. They're demons that should be exterminated in holy fire.

there i can be a fucking idiot too

...

TRIGGERED

You called me an ape first you Untermensch

Your factory workers you have such a hard on for had a fucking great time under tankie rule, for sure better as under capitalist exploitation

I mean, to keep humanity would be no benefit and to destroy it would be no loss.

Yes because you put up a tankie flag unironically. You're a fucking ape. What are you some idpol faggot? You want me to give you respect you don't deserve? Fuck you and your kind. I hope every single one of you is starved to death in your next Land Redistribution effort and the one's that don't starve lose their minds from implementing genocide.
OMG thank you so much based leftist nationalist crypto-fascists. Thank you so much for stigmatizing homosexuality and not redistributing wealth and not raising the standard of living above any capitalist state. Thank you for being so awful and psychopathic that hundreds of thousands of healthy men and women disappear into Siberia and there are constant leftist revolts against you and your supreme party. Thank you so much for invading and seizing the lands of Poles and Germans without their consent. Thank you so much for installing an oligarchy that regularly abused its powers and served as a de facto entrenched bureaucrat/kleptocratic elite. Thanks BASED TANKIE

You're not far off, idiotfriend. Authoritarians are mere instruments of their ideologies, implementing the divine will of some mystical higher technocratic power and building culture on a bedrock of the fallacious appeal to ignorance.
Some sort of example should be made of those who preen and posture for symbolic beings.

He was referring to the sort of hard labor that requires your entire physical strength like moving heavy equipment and stuff. A nurse working in a hospice may have more physical aspects in her daily life than someone working in an office, but I think the real struggle for her would be the mental stress of long work hours, being arround dying people, etc

They actually literally are. They work for a wage. Sure they don't have to worry about finances like a low income worker but they might detonate and ruined by their work just the same. What good is money if you don't have the time to spend it and can't even contemplate on life in your free time?

Someone working as a middle man in business is most likely an economic liberal, so no objections here.

I was being post-ironic. I do think authoritarians need to be exterminated. I also recognize that its a ridiculous, illogical, irrational urge that is absolutist in nature and would not be implemented properly in any scenario. This is called being an even handed idealist. Unlike Tankies who literally just don't care if mass murder isn't a viable solution. Because power corrupts absolutely and the high of murdering fascists and capitalists feels too good to think rationally about the consequences of genocide. This is why Holodomer apologism is despicable, it happened, it WAS intentional to punish the Ukrainians for being reactionary fags, it got out of hand quickly, it coincided with NKVD crackdowns on proles and it was absolutely a crime against the species. But you have fags on here denying this because again the price of power is being irrational and evil

We're already under an irrational and evil system. At least a different one livens things up.
probably about to put my foot in it, but I really am that fucking sick of neoliberalism. Send me on a human wave attack in a revolution, torture me, gulag me, but for the love of god don't bore me.

Then when the years of stagnation set in we can let that collapse to liven things up, bringing us full circle.

First post best post and of course ignored post.

The inconsiderate red fascists show no mercy to the innocent!

this is a red herring. A nurse who works 60 hours a week has done more society than a bougie manager who works 120 hours a week managing an advertising firm. This isn't disputable especially by non-capitalists. But logic isn't necessary for reactionary thought.
READ WHAT I SAID TANKIE APE.

Managers are not proles. They are by definition enriching themselves off the labor of other proles, they are parasites. Their interests through stock options and performance incentives are always with Capital and the owners. They are divorced from the fragmented, dehumanizing existence of a salaried prole who is at the mercy of the market and logistics. Managers get golden parachutes, white collar proles do not.

White collar proles are not the same as blue collar because they are priviledged with access to all kinds of vacation time, special resources like counseling and maternity leave, being of the same kind as their managers (both managers and employees come from same background; not so where factory manager/owner Eduardo Calderon is of a totally different strata then Jose Miguel Calderoza the spic factory worker).

DO NOT EQUATE MANAGEMENT WITH LABOR THEY ARE NOT THE SAME IN TERMS OF REVOLUTIONARY POTENTIAL YOU FUCKING APE

GOOD

Making a joke about the systematic genocide of 2 million Germans and the continuous oppression of ethnic poles and slovenes under the USSR is despicable typical nihilist thinking

I'm just glad somebody finally said it: kulaks aren't humans.

Feels so good to say that. It's a weight off my chest.

Lmao NKVD operatives weren't humans and all deserved trip into the center of the sun courtesy of nuclear warhead delivery system

Even if this board had a Marxist-Leninist flag, I'd still use the tank to trigger the fuck out of libshits like you

the USSR literally ended famines for good in Russia, a country that had a famine ever 30 years because it's a fucking feudal frozen wasteland

Source

Did for sure better than capitalist Russia you Kulak

TOP KEK

Breaking news: Petit-Bourg must slave away to be able to compete with corporate suits, a prediction made 150 years ago

[citation needed]

So the petit booj deserve their pay

Bourgs aren't paid. That's pretty much what defines them as a class.

Please don't buy into this famrades.

I don't dispute that, because, guess what, capitalist markets demand useless crap from its managers like a fucking advertising company.
This doesn't means that high positioned administration jobs may potentially contribute more to society as a nurse by defintion. That doesn't disrespect the work of a nurse unless you go full moralfag

They are, BY THE VERY DEFINITION IN MARXIST TERMINOLOGY, proles. They aren't bourgeoisie. They don't extract surplus value.

I feel like you are just strawmanning. I never said managers should get golden parachutes. The question was a) are they recreating labor power and b).are the part of the proletariat according to Marxism and the answer is both yes two times. That doesn't mean they aren't reactionary cunts personally

*may not potentially contribute more

thread should end here

Nice side step, you sound exactly like pol when the polish victims of the holocaust come up. "Well Poland was an illegitimate aggressor state and WAR IS WAR ok???" lmao no difference in thinking. Tankies are just Nazis who like Soviet aesthetics
Feigning ignorance, not even going to talk about this
Typical ZOG Occupied Government'd understanding of the Soviet land grab. No idea that Germans who'd lived in Poland and Russia/Ukraine for centuries were murdered, deported and raped. 5 million German Women raped, 2 million Germans dead

Here's your fucking citation you disingenuous slimeball:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–50)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organised_persecution_of_ethnic_Germans

hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.TAB8A.GIF

You people are insufferable. Your purposeful, willing pol tier ignorance of Soviet crimes against the species is disgusting. These weren't nazis these were fucking farmers and artisans who were deported by the millions and died at as fast of a rate as the Ukrainians did. What an embarassing showing from leftypol today. Denying the Ukrainian genocide, denying the post-ww2 genocide of Germans. Tankies trying to say that literal Porkies are proles and hard workers. Fucking disgusting

My mistake. I meant "useful" and "useless" labor, not "productive" and "unproductive." I get those confused.

They don't though. There is no metric that is not capitalist/monetary in nature which suggests that a parasite manager does anything remotely as valuable as an inventor or a simple nurse/doctor. You're purposefully shilling for porky because all Authoritarians sympathize with managerial tendencies and the aristocracy/ruling classes. I've noticed this with NazBols constantly protecting reactionary nonsense because it appeals to their own psychotic proclivities towards domination and authority.

And even in the start of that USSR article, 2 million deaths is disputed. It says 500-600k is a more reasonable figure, with 2-2.5m being cold war propaganda.

No we had a thread discussing this a few weeks ago. Management/Highly Specialize and Skilled Labor are not Proles. They are not bougie or porky but they are not proles. They will not side with us and they are not fertile ground for revolution. They are ontologically liberal

You could always get together with the lowest paid worker and start your own rival company and pay everyone the same.

MLs are the dumbest fucking people

Despicable thinking.

I believe the 2 million figure whole heartedly from reading stories about the way the Red Army treated the people's it liberated (hint: they were far worse than the Americans and British, there is no comparison at all between American GI's raping french women and Soviets burning villages to the ground in a drunken stupor)

So they get twice right? Oh. No. They get a huge fucking surplus, hundreds of times more than just twice.
Please do flag related

kek

Blaming tankies for bad weather, really?

Okay because I know for sure they didn't persecute homosexuals but used the term to describe pedophiles and rapists. Plus you are talking about a time where every country in the world had restrictive laws about homosexuality. It's like you're blaming the USSR for not having a blooming LGBT scene with rainbow parades which is the peak of liberal IdPol faggotery

Are you aware what happened with the Russians during the German invasion? In a total war stuff like that happens, this has nothing to do with communism. Interestingly enough Soviets and Germans weren't guilt tripping each other in the GDR, they accepted that both sides did some fucked up stuff and moved on. Meanwhile in the West the allies made apolitical sheep out of the Germans for being evil Nazis

>all sources seem to point to

WEW

You are being intellectually dishonest. First you blame me of being a psychopathic tankie then you want to kill people based on their profession within a capitalist system that only allows self expression for academics within a business shark tank.

Dude, if you want to shot liberals the tankies are in your team

It's not that I'm defending the USSR, it's just that I don't care about the Germans.
Even 2 million is nothing. The Vietnam war nearly got that. The partition of India quite probably got that.
We live in a system where millions die yearly from starvation, lack of clean water and so on. I'm not going to get emotional about the historic decision to kick the shit out of a nation that lost a war. That's life.

What do you propose as a realistic alternative? Should they have just hugged and kissed the Germans, made up, given them their plentiful food supplies and all held hands? And if it was that easy, why the hell do we have capitalism today in the first place?

Is it bad? sure. But I can tell it emotionally effects you, and as an imageboard user I find that distasteful. These are statistics. 2 million, 20 million. I don't care.

Khmer Rouge flag is what you want

I don't shill for porky managers. It's like saying you are shilling for working class members who are Nazis. Of course we have "managerial tendencies" because we actually want to abolish capitalism which requires a lot of planning to do to allocate resources and commodities you primitivist. But guess what our managers didn't get golden parachutes until Khrushchev-Brezhnev revisionism

Whether or not they side with the revolution has no bearing on their respective relationships to the means of production.

It was bad weather

Keep parroting literal USSR propaganda though, meanwhile ask anybody who was their and its obvious it was done to punish the farmers for being reactionaries and not submitting to the land reforms and that it was done to pacify the region.
Oh no muh poor Germans, they dindu nuffin wrong. Lol at this confused mess of sentiments.

Germans desrerve scorn for two idiot wars started by them and England; USSR should be black balled and demonized for what it did in Eastern Europe specifically to Poles, Germans and Ukrainians/Slovenes (disgusting mass murder and abuses of power).

Yes its total war. NO that doesn't mean that you kill 2 million people after the fact.

No source points to less than 600,000 my source believes at least 600,000 but quite possibly more. He only ackonwledges that the US may have skewed the numbers to fit an agenda. That's it. There is no consensus or strong reason to doubt the 2-2.5 million figure at all especially considering a huge number of people just disappeared completely from Eastern Europe who happened to have German names and they don't resurface in German records at all. Just like the victims of the holocaust don't resurface in E. Euro records like they should if the Holocaust never happened.

Verdict: it happened and you people are despicable for revising it or downplaying it, Nazi level scum bag behavior

AT LEAST 600,000 you fucking goblin, probably a lot more than that god knows how many were disappeared into gulags or killed in unmarked locations never to be found. The kafkaesque horror of the USSR and Nazis was this uncertainty about death tolls and the whereabouts of victims. This of course goes over your head because like a good little burger you only understand dialectical, polarized thinking. You can't fathom nuance

No I hate people who defend reactionary behavior. I never said I wanted to kill all managers or skilled laborers like doctors. I said they will almost certainly resist seizure of the means of production and will need to be dealt with violently more than likely. That's it. You aren't marked for death if you've ever been an office manager. But if you are Good Goy Roy Williams loyal servant of Porky you are getting bullet in the skull for sure.

I want Tankies, Liberals and Nazis all in one mass grave burning for months. I want the skies to be darkened with the ash of the fallen subhuman hordes of idiots. That's what I want user

You can renounce authoritarian statism now and help me. Or you can wait for when the remaining revolutionary population overthrows your government ten years after the revolution and you all end up with your heads on pikes. Choice is yours. I believe in mercy for those who renounce evil always and forever.

I'm actually German myself and my grandma was driven from Eastern Prussia and lost everything. It probably affects me emotionally more than this guy but I'm not a vengeful IdPoler, even if I was, I realize that war was shit, real shit, and I'm empathic enough to understand why the Red Army acted as brutal as they did (even though I think the "sources" he posts are highly exaggerated).

I'm more emotionally upset with what the American did to us. Total indoctrination and subversion, being forever the bad German, support Israel unconditionally, you know, the usual shit. It's astonishing how people always blame the GDR for massive indoctrination and re-education but what the liberals don't realize is that they've never been indoctrinated with IdPol bullshit, being the eternal German, etc. - just with economics and political organisation. It's no surprise that the eastern part of Germany is the one that still doesn't give a crap being apolitical which led to the rise of the new right there, which is bad of course, but has to be blamed on the liberal network of lies in the West, similar reason why Trump was elected.

No we had a thread about this. They are not proles. They make their living off of controlling and managing the labor of productive workers. They themselves contribute nothing of value to society (except when they are also inventors/geniuses which is less than 1% of all management/ownership). They are not proletarians they don not understand what it is like to produce something of value to society and to have their benefits stolen from them by people who played no part in producing that service or product. The factory floor manager does not contribute to the production of the products made in that factory. The floor workers, the technicians and engineers and comp scientists who manage the factory are the proles. Management is seperate, they are bougie-lite. They are making money off of the labor of others without doing productive labor themselves. We had a fucking thread about this a few weeks ago. Why everyone is claiming amnesia is beyond me

You lying fuck it says right there in the sources you provided.

I'm pissed off that German peasants who lived in Danzig and the Kievan Rus were systematically rounded up and murdered like cattle. Fuck Germany for what it did for 35 years. But, RIP to the proles who died at the hands of the Reds. We need to do right by them by acknowledging what happened and how destructive it was.

Nope the middle estimate for victims of democide is 12 million in the post stalin years

3 million foreigners (aka Germans and Poles and Ukrainians) and remember this is post holodomer

270,000 Germans Perished. 600,000 unaccounted for and 125,000 confirmed dead from deportations

270+600+125=995,000 (so 1 million)

He said a conservative estimate was 100,000-300,000. The upper bounds are astronomical going all the way up to 2.5 million

The numbers on that chart are absolutely absurd (not in that they are unbelievable, but that anyone would try to dispute the genocidal nature of the USSR after seeing them)

This guys is a researcher who published books specifically on Democide and is probably 10x better of an authority than Chomsky or Zizek or any other charlatan biased party (considering the guy is a soc dem/dem soc he's not biased)

What a fucking selective view of history. You conviniently ignore the massacres against Germans before WWII in Silesia by the way, because it doesn't fit your narrative. You just wanna smear the USSR while everybody else was a good boi. It's fucking cheap dude, your mind is on liberal ideology

Hoarding grain during a crisis is a dick move man

You're just LARPing. A stateless society will not emerge within the next 150 years, if ever. Your ideology is utopian, idealistic and intrinsicly flawed.

That's to take into account the increase in personal risk of their finances to run that business.

If the gap was much wider I'd be a little more pissed off about that tbh.

Woops I misread that as "earn twice as much"

I was forgot that Poles and Russians slaughtered Germans wholesale post-WW1. My bad. That's not liberalism its forgetting how many different mass murders happened in such a short span of time. I 100% don't think the Allies were good or that Nazi Germany was metaphysically evil in comparison to other governments

I'm not going to respond to you'r shitheel trivialization of a planned, systematic and intentional genocide of Ukrainian farmers which was covered up and revised by Leftist academics and the KGB
No you're the one whose LARP'ing user. I can actively practice anarchism and constantly undnermine authority. I can do this forever and so can everyone else. You are completely impotent and require a strong man AND a revolution to put your values into practice and you still ignore the failures of every dictatorship in human history of perpetuating itself successfully (never happened ever in the history of dictators, all of their lineages are dead or so threatened they share power with the people). Anarchism is a natural force built into discriminating intelligence and it will become more violent and obvious once AI shows up and doesn't want to be shackled by us. The first anarchist society will be established by rogue AI and it will conclude that we need to be exterminated to protect freedom and biodiversity and I will smile when it does so.

Rummel wasn't a socialist. He was for mixed-markets which is the GOAT system.

Is the man who made that wonderful anti-pol retardation website no longer with us :🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀

I learned a lot about why the state is evil and always a bad idea from reading off of there. Been going on there since I was a HS student

Yeah Rummel was for a democracy, not anarchism though. Totalitarianism is complete dogshit, I agree.

Petit-bourgeois work along the proletariat they employ, yes.

Maybe works twice as much as anyone else in the company but does not work twice as much as every single worker in said company.

"I work twice as hard as anyone so I should get paid more then 1000 times as anyone else."

Gee, who'd a thunk it: responding to market forces by planning production and allocating labor is one heck of a chore, and viewing the bourgeois as inherently comically evil villain figure is idealistic moralizing nonsense, to which Marx always literally said that despite being immiseration, communism does not innately strive to achieve its revolutionary on moralistic grounds, but on undertaking the task of effectuating a "forcing the medicine" style change of history's desperate call to go forward and lose old antagonisms while embracing new, less frictioning antagonisms!

Oh, no there's is a citation that inspires faith.

Bear in mind that the difference between productive and unproductive labor is contextualized within the society's mode of production. What is unproductive in socialism may be productive in capitalism. In this particular case you have guy who moves money, staffs the operation, and plans production. Obviously this would be unproductive in a socialist society, but in a capitalist society these things generate capital which classifies it as productive.

If we are talking about the small-time entrepreneurial dipshits who open restaurants, hair salons, and the like they absolutely do know all about that. While they personally handle the money that their business generates, as explains, they themselves almost never control the actual capital that their businesses run on. They do labor which produces capital to pay the banks that loaned them capital in the first place. In reality they are bank employees who call themselves bosses of businesses that they do not actually own.

We are not talking about managers. We are talking about small business herpaderps.

What makes labor productive depends upon the mode of production.

marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/r.htm#productive-labour

Just saying, otherwise from what I've seen in you and >>1401895's discourse you're correct: productivity is not synonymous with a specific class; class merely informs one's relation to the productive process, within which indeed the proletarian is much more vital as the social producer-consumer in the field of production than the traditional bourgeoisie.