Wind Waker is a fucking terrible zelda game

Wind Waker is a fucking terrible zelda game.

- shitty forced stealth
- awful dungeons that are short without any challenge
- waterworld
- terrible new items, like the slow grappling hook
- shit combat

Everything about this game is just wrong.

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Then why did you make a thread about it?

The only people who like it are the ones who like to scream "LE COMFY MEME XDXDXD LELELELELE"

false as fuck, the combat in windwaker is good.

The music is top tier though

Hey OP i just came to say your opinion is shit and you're a faggot, now check my dubs.

check mine

Couldn't agree more user. I used to think that it was great, but when I went back and re-played it a couple of years ago, I realised how shit it was.


The game has some good stuff going for it. The way a lot of the puzzles kind of build up off each-other is kinda neat. And the bosses are usually really good. The end of the game is also really good, and there are some great set-pieces throughout.

I think a lot of people have a selective memory, and only remember how good the good bits are, and forget how bad the bad bits are. I really recommend that people go back and replay it with fresh eyes, so they can see how dull it is. The HD-re-release fixes some of these issues, the triforce hunt isn't nearly as bad because of changes to the wallet-size and location of certain pieces, and the sailing isn't nearly as shit, but the game still has these absolutely horrible flaws that a lot of people seem to ignore.

Those dubs are pretty nice, wish I had some.

WW OST has absolutely nothing on the rest of the Zelda Franchise. Even Skyward Sword has music that's AT THE VERY LEAST as good as WW.

And the past version.

Game is fun, but the slow boat killed it for me.
Literally takes you longer to sail from one place to the dungeon than it does to complete the dungeon.

The Triforce quest was complete horseshit. There drastically needed to be more actual dungeons, considering the overworld was bereft of shit to do. It's a game I can NEVER replay.

Press A to roll and win is not good combat.

Surely nothing could have been as bad as the bug quest in TP though?

You need to explain what this bug quest is? Filling the container with light bugs? That's like 10 minutes tops and only 3 times filled with exploration and action. Meanwhile WW's triforce quest takes fucking hours where literally nothing happens.

But all zelda games are terrible.

But dark souls has good combat

Well I guess any game with rolling is now bad.

the stealth lasts less than 2minutes. its at the same level as a mini game. complaining about it makes you akin to sjw complaining about the smallest things.

subjective. first dungeon was ok. i thought most of its dungeons were ok tier. using girl with lute and mirror shield was ok too. TP had better dungeons and it doesnt even reach the level of OOT dungeons, but it was ok and the elaborated combat for its time compensated it

I'll give you that.

No

objective wrong since it elaborated on OOT/MM combat with parry, using enemy's weapons. Enemies having armor. Enemies dropping different loot. The combat and OST were its strong points

Also this is not worth a thread. These are the type of threads that should be shunned, not videogame related threads.

The HD remake makes the boat faster, to the point its actually fine travel-wise.
I agree with the second point, but at the same time you can argue it encourages a world worth backtracking to explore later. Later in the series they realized this however and you can explore earlier without items. they polished their exploration design with BOTW.
Now, complaining about it with WW is not fair, since this trend has been happening since OOT. You cannot really go beyond locked areas until you get certain treasures in order to advance the game. And you know what? that's fine. That's simply a different structure of pacing your game. Paper Mario TTYD did the same as OOT by gating content until you get upgrades, then giving you exploring options with branched paths every time you get an upgrade. Same with OOT. That design serves its purpose and it is simply different.
I agree. But you're extrapolating it. It still had design and structure placed into them. I thought they were ok. Not good like previous titles or TP, but they served their purpose. Remember, WW is a rushed game.
I agree with makar's dungeon, and I also think the Earth temple was fine too.

The worst part of the game was the tri-force hunt, but it was really fixed in the HD re-release
i enjoyed doing a 3 heart run of the HD re-release.

Or you're just a faggot based on plenty of shit I can take apart like the stealth being absolutely nothing in the game and executed well enough for an unarmed character in over his head.


Medli is pure sex. All it takes is not only having s fucking beak to make birds potentially sexy.


But it's not shit, faggot. It does what it does well in the form of the sea itself minus a need for more in it and puzzles as well as everything else mentioned. There's nothing shitty about the new items, either.

I've literally replayed it recently and my only complaint possible is its short length and emptiness at times and Triforce hunt.

I'm wondering why they just didn't remove the triforce hunt and just put in some of the dungeons they had to scrap the first time around. Seems like a wasted opportunity.

Protip: Backtracking is a bad thing.
Not on the scale of WW and not in your face like in WW. Games make the progression feel natural. In WW it feels fake as fuck. Not to mention other games make it less painfully boring to backtrack by having you do something meanwhile. While in WW you just stare at a blue sky and a blue ocean with nothing in it until you get there.
Whats the alternative you're suggesting here? That the dungeons have a beginning a middle and an end and so he can't complain? Of course everything has a design and a structure. That doesn't excuse how awful it is.
Its still in the game, so no it is not fixed. And "fixing it" doesn't excuse the fact that it was in the base game. All this "BUT MUH HD REMAKE" is just you admitting the original game is trash, that Nintendo literally had to go change the game to make it bearable and that you really have no way to defend it.

If WW was just a shit Zelda game, I could just shrug and move on with my life. But what makes the game so cancerous is all these Zelda newfags who proclaim WW the best Zelda when it's the first one they ever played. And then these pieces of shit are the ones whose opinion influences future Zelda titles because they tend to be "game journos" or are otherwise part of the vocal minority.

To be fair, most people's first zelda is their favorite one. The series tends to make people discover a certain way of playing a game, since it's somewhat entry-level in the first place, yet rich enough to make it very novel and fascinating if it's your first.
Thus, your enjoyment is stronger when it's the first time.

My first was Link's Awakening. And its definitely not my favorite.

Currently emulating Skyward Sword and as long as there's no story it feels like a better and more polished WW created by some currynigger. It probably helps that I'm using a gamepad and not motion controls. I really want to know if a currynigger made this game though because holy fuck.

They honestly should have stopped after the first one. The games have only become more casual with every entry.

No the ones where you had to find all of the shadow insects. Those invisible bugs that you had to track down and kill and it was tedious and boring as a motherfuck.

This is a shitty post, because it does not elaborate on any of those things and explain why they're bad and how they could be improved. If you want actual discussion, and this isn't just a feeble attempt to bait retards into shitposting, then you're going to have to explain yourself.

The game is far from perfect, and you could take some of those assertions as a use them as a basis for your arguments, and make valid criticisms that don't rely on sensational language and a forced outrage.

SS would've been an amazing game had they not made Fi so insufferable. The end is supposed to be so moving and touching, and yet I couldn't help but NOT feel anything towards her there.
There are so many parts where she treats us like retards I ended up disliking her. Also they should've allowed to "store" two items at least instead of always having to cycle through them.


BotW is far from casual though. Webm related.

So exactly what I posted. You're complaining about 3 segments that take 10 minutes tops and is filled with action. The biggest complaint you can have is that they're fairly linear progression-wise so you never get lost.

And comparing it to a segment where you have to go fish for a map, take it to tingle (if you have enough money), find out where the map points and then get the triforce piece. 8 fucking times. And I didn't even include the time it took to sail from and to each place.

No, fuck you. There is no way the shadow insects get even close to hunting the triforce pieces.

See I think I should clarify my point here a bit. When I say the dungeons are easy and hand-holdy, I mean that they are extremely linear and go out of their way to point you in the direction you are supposed to go in.

Consider the design of a lot of 2d zelda dungeons. They typically follow this trend:

1-Enter the dungeon, find that it is mostly locked off and difficult to move around in
2-Progress through the dungeon, encountering many dead ends blocked with an obstacle
3- Find the key item, which lets you get past the dead ends
4- Go back through the dungeon to places you remember having obstacles, opening up more of the dungeon and exploring the areas you remember
5- Find the big key and fight the boss

Compare it to a typical Wind Waker dungeon:
1-Enter the dungeon, follow the linear path forward
2- note a single major obstacle that blocks off a second path on the main path
3- find the key item, which unlocks a shortcut straight to the major obstacle
4- use the key item to get past the major obstacle and unlock the second half of the dungeon
5-proceed through the linear path for the rest of the dungeon, find the big key, and fight the boss.

They seem pretty similar on the surface, but the key is in the linearity. In the better zelda dungeons, the dungeon really opens up when you get the key item, and the player is expected to remember where it is useful and what you can do with it in the dungeon. Typically you can sort of choose your own path forward, maybe you get a single key but there are two locked doors for you choose from, or maybe you need to go back in the dungeon to find a key you're missing out on.

Compared to WW, where you never have any choice in the dungeons. As soon as you get the key item, a shortcut opens and drops you straight in front of the obstacle you need to pass. You only ever hold a single key because there is only ever a single locked door for you to open. There is only ever a single, linear, path forward.

The temple with makar is the major exception. It gives you a lot more freedom in how you tackle it, and I think that makes it a much better dungeon.

For concrete examples of what I'm talking about:

I'm not sure if I'm getting across what annoys me about these temples. Basically, the problem I have is that the game just pushes you into the place you need to be, rather than having you explore the dungeon and find out where to go by yourself.

It's a problem that a lot of the 3d zeldas have. But WW is by far the worst for it, since I suspect that the more complicated dungeons were the ones that got scrapped.

Close, Miyamoto had some impact and while not an Indian he is an Aborgine

What the fuck game did you play, there are 16 god damn fucking bugs you have to kill not 3.

Holy fuck are you a woman or something? I can't imagine a man being this retarded. Look up the word "segment".

Super Metroid, Igavanias, as well as other Metroidvanias all have backtracking. Even Metroid Prime or other games with exploration have backtracking. Same with world-hub adventure games like Zelda. It simply comes with the game. Should you avoid it in design, or polish it so its rewarding? That's up to the dev and it depends how it is delivered. In WW's case, backtracking is benign since you're rewarded for your backtracking, and in the HD re-release backtracking is very fast and not tedious.

I agree Traveling in WW is boring, and the HD re-master helps my making it faster. The good music is not enough since the traveling is not different than hopping on a hyppogryph in wow and go in taxi drive. It's not really fun or something you want to do. Again, the re-released makes the time bearable. As much as I agree with you there's this issue but also you're lacking in basic patience, user. If you played the original I understand, but on the updated version complaining about it, your impatience would make you negligible. It's not that bad. Takes a less than a minute to travel to an island. Its WAY faster.

The dungeons in WW are miles better than any videogame kosher design triple AAA we see nowadays, and Id still give WW's dungeon design is not awful, its 7/10 at best.

The tri-force hunt is still in the game, but with less-than-a-minute travel time attaining the shards is trivial.


I hate to continue with the "the HD remake makes it better argument", but it does

. I can tell you're just bashing the vanilla version, which is not valid criticism since the original is simply an outdated version. They're both the same game, except one has fixed and updates that make the game better. Complaining about me counter-arguing you with the remake is not a counter-argument.

I really need to go to bed. I'm typing while falling asleep.

nite i should get to sleep too

And they're always slammed for it. In fact its one of the biggest complaints people have with Metroid Prime.
So you have no argument.
You really love to project and extrapolate things from one occasion. I will just assume that you're again admitting you have no argument, you just don't want to acknowledge the game is shit.
How the fuck is this relevant when we're only discussing this series? Again, you have absolutely no argument. The only game you can complain about here is BOTW which is absolutely the worst Zelda game for not being like Zelda at all.
Again no argument, fuck off.
Again no argument, fuck off.

Here's your reply

I agree; the game picks up a lot when they actually let you do things, it's one of the more linear Zelda titles for the first third of the game

You're just wrong on this one. Provide me some examples. They all feel about right and get progressively longer/more challenging as the game progresses

It's exactly the fucking same as having a wide open field with nothing in it

Grappling hook has different utility to the hookshot (can change direction of swing). If you're building the game around new items, which they did, then it's a non-issue if they work well and are fun

One of the better combat systems in a 3D Zelda thought 3D Zelda combat is usually just about serviceable. Introduction of counters was good.

Much like your opinion

HD fixes the main issue from GC, which is that it's slow as fuck to get anywhere, by adding the swift sail meaning no time wasted changing wind direction and double speed. I played it again in the run-up to BotW and it was still good fun.


My negro.


It's a completely different ball-game, user. In 2D you have a better overview of every room you enter by virtue of seeing all of it (exclusions such as dark rooms aside). In 3D your view is much more restricted, getting around the spaces is slower due to verticality being added, etc. There is nothing to gain from comparing the dungeons in the different Zelda styles because the methodology of how you play them is different, so the design has to change to better fit how you play it.

Not saying you shouldn't take issues with dungeons being too simplistic, too linear, etc. Just saying that your approach won't help on this.

No you are and I agree with you. Their design is linear.
I, too, also prefer the design of previous Zelda games and 2D zeldas.
However, their linear design, albeit simpler, is ultimately just different. Because it differs from the more elaborate formula it still does not mean it cannot be good or sustain quality.
Briefly put the linear WW dungeons are still well done albeit being much simpler in design.
Now, if the design was simple and minimalistic to go with the cell shading and overall simple design of the game yet posessed a sensationalistic amount of effort in detail to compensate, I'd say the dungeons would definitely be simple and beautiful and worth saying "its different and good". That's why I simply say "Its ok" and no more than a 7/10. They do their job and they sprinkle what needs to be sprinkled in the pot. However it could've been better stirred.

But I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree with you.

Because they design them now for the kind of modern idiot that actually believes BOTW is the hardest Zelda ever.

You're better than that.

here's my problem with the sailing, it essentially operates as a gateway to new islands and new content. That's pretty much what it does. Looking back at what pretty much every other zelda game did, they had either screens you panned across for a minute or two to get to your destination, taking on basic challenges along the way, had quick warps to access the areas you're trying to reach, and essentially, the period of going from point A to B is pretty short and engaging or very simple. In other games they might use a load screen to go from one level to the next, in zelda you traveled. Works either way.

In Wind Waker they blew the doors wide open on the waiting concept and made it so are doing the most fucking boring activity of all time and watching a screen saver (ooh so pretty and "comfy") bop up and down for 4+ minutes. It takes you from one end of the world to the next and it's so incredibly fucking boring because the little activities you can do are a waste of time that notably prolong the A-B process for no meaningful reward. And if you don't wanna waste more time? You're still spending fucking 4+ minutes just doing NOTHING.

this is half the game. Half of this 15 hour game is doing NOTHING. That's fucking horrendous. Wind Waker is absolute shit and is one of the worst 3D zeldas to date.

The HD re-release is the same game as the original game. It's simply an updated version of the GC copy. It is a valid stance, and we should be discussing the most updated version anyway, to talk about the WiiU release.

The one without counter-argument, let alone even played the most recent version to actually talk about the game with valid updated criticism, is you.

This can't be any more wrong. Traveling on the sea is more like a fucking cutscene than anything else. While on an open field in any Zelda game you have to actually make inputs. Not to mention the fields are much smaller for that exact reason. There's also much more to look at than blue sea and blue sky. Its like night and fucking day.

another way of looking at it:
wind waker has 4+ minute long load screens lmao fuck this game and anyone who likes it is a retard and had it as their first zeldo

Pick one.
No it is not a valid stance because OP didn't mention the remake. So if anything then we're NOT discussing the "updated version" and you're just being a pissant because you can't handle your favorite Zelda is actually shit.

I dumped it after entering the Korok dungeon. One dungeon and two islands, that's all I could stomach of it.
The movement is awful compared to what I was used to playing it back-to-back with MM. WW has some weird momentum that requires you to get a running start to get up to terminal speed, compared to MM/OoT where a full tilt of the analog stick will get you going at full speed immediately. This is especially important with hopping off of ledges. In MM, it's harder to accidentally do a short hop off of a ledge, since rolling into the ledge tends to be enough to do a long jump. In WW, since you have to get a running start to get up to speed, if you're trying to do a series of long hops across platforms, you have to run across them all, aiming be damned, and keep your momentum through them all. It's harder to get a running start on a small platform (maybe with a quarter- or half-circle movement, but not running right at it), if not impossible, and it fucks with my mind when I've never had this problem with any other Zelda game ever.
Also, WW has fucked up combat. There's weird counter things against the centipedes that require timing. There's weird countering against the Bokoblins that requires dodging and attacking. Even mashing B feels like it's inconsistent. I mash B in MM, I get a very consistent pattern for the inputs. I do the same in WW, and I feel like I'm getting a different combo every time.
I'd heard that it was one of the best in the series, so maybe I was expecting more than it was, but I'm left really disappointed, with a foul taste in my mouth, and if it "gets better later", I don't really want to march through shit to get to any potential good part.

Holding up on the thumbstick to go to the same place as not holding anything while the blue sea changes to green field is pretty much the same shit, user. Walking around in big empty spaces is completely fucking boring in almost every game it's ever been in. Zelda is no exception. It's not remembered for all that fun content it packed into Hyrule Field.

The world is not totally empty, there are plenty of inconsequential islands that have enemies to fight and consumable items to collect. There are the squid minibosses, there are secret grotto mini-dungeons that have a gauntlet of enemies to fight, and there are islands with puzzles that need solving. I guess you could make an argument that the things to do in the overworld are not worth doing for their own sake, or tedious, or boring. The boat is sort of slow, though, and it is a pain to constantly redirect the flow of wind. It would've been better if there was some way by which players could change the direction of the wind in real time by pressing a button.
The game is quite linear, but I think that was a deliberate design choice, which seems strange when you consider that they went through the effort to create an open world. These games have been like this since the inception of the series, though; it's not fair to fault WW especially when all the other games do this as well. It's the formula, not this specific game.

Everything else I agree with. Terribly designed dungeons because they're too linear and puzzles are straightforward, not to mention there's only four or five dungeons total.

The Triforce quest was complete horseshit
It absolutely was. It's sad that they didn't offer a unique dungeon for the Triforce, instead of their fetch quest.

I don't like the combat. It's pretty stiff, if that makes sense. Enemies will fall down on the ground, and they'll become invincible during their recovery, so you can't attack them while they're down. Enemies have behaviors that must be countered in specific ways, which sort of waters down the combat mechanics into a game of rock, paper, scissors. As an example, when you fight Darknuts, you have to do a contextual parry animation in order to remove their armor before you can deal damage. Removing their armor is fine, but the contextual animation is the only method you have to do so, which means that the game treats combat as a formulaic and procedural activity, which is dumb.

I think Majora's Mask had far better dungeon design. MM is the perfect game to compare WW to because they hold about the same amount of major content. MM made each dungeon interesting by integrating environmental puzzles into the entire dungeon itself, and then designed solutions to those puzzles that accounted for each new mask and major ability that you acquired. You have to continuously turn the Stone Tower Temple upside down to acquire all the major items before you can progress to the final boss. This type of design forces the player to observe their environment and make judgements about what to do next that will be reliant on memory alone.

You're mad as fuck and can't respond to the argument in question. Hell Skyward Sword did sailing better than WW.

My favorite Zelda is OOT/MM for 3D zeldas, but thanks for making yourself look like a retard by being a presumptuous faggot.
If you want to talk about core issues of the game, both present in GC version and WiiU version,you would actually have a stance or a point to talk about. But you're complaining about issues like backtracking and traveling time which have been already fixed with the WiiU release. so no, you're just being a little crying bitch baby faggot whining about something for the sake of whining when it had been addressed already.

This is not your "yes man" echo chamber to complain about things that have already been solved, which is a testament you're of little intellect if you find any point in complaining about the old version. For what purpose? you're simply trying really hard to win an internet debate instead of fomenting discussion of the latest edition of the game.

Never said it was the same audience. Just pointing out the downward trend towards holding the hands of drooling retards. My point still stands.

I'd respond to the argument if you had one, user. I'm not saying WW's sailing is the pinnacle of world traversal, I'm just saying that if you compare it to other Zelda titles where most of the time you're fucking around walking and doing nothing else, it's pretty much the same only in one game you don't have to input anything and can Swift Sail, which is arguably better because I can do something else rather than hold up on the stick. There's a reason why these games have fast travel; traversal of almost any game world isn't fucking fun.

Oh boy here comes the usual "I'm an autist in denial of being wrong so I refuse to acknowledge you have points" excuse. You haven't been capable of arguing your points or arguments this entire time and had to resort to namecalling and extrapolating shit. You're a piece of garbage.

Fuck off already.

See

This is you

...

Zelda was always an easy game. Same with mario. The standard for "Easy" simply lowered with time.
The 2d Zeldas and previous 3D zeldas were cakewalk as well. There's only a level of challenge in LttP if you romhack it so theres only 3 hearts. Even 3 heart runs are not really challenging, but at least add a notion of being wary, making the game more fun.
I hate to sound edgy or elitist but its the truth. Zelda has never been a challenging franchise. Which is a pity because it would make it better

I'm actually struggling to see what point you have, user. I haven't namecalled, I meant it when I said I'd respond to what you had to say if you had anything worth saying. You basically said "Core thing that's the same as another core thing is different because one colour has been changed and I have to put in an input." That's a completely superficial difference. The complaints about the ocean in WW can be levelled at Hyrule Field/hub sections of any 3D Zelda game ever made because the amount of content and time spent traversing them before fast-travel options is usually about the same. People just don't like water in games. It's always been the case. You could make a game where you can walk on water, with as much content on the water as on land to the same density, and people would complain that there's too much water in the game.

tl;dr - Here's your reply 2: Electric Boogaloo

Point still stands. You're complaining we're talking about an updated patch of a game instead of an old patch when the issues you're complaining about have already been fixed.

last (you) I give you because at this point you're just trying really hard to come up with whatever possible excuse of an ad hominem to try and rebuke. Sad.

Not when that input is "Hold forward for 5 minutes". Not all inputs are created equal.

Because you're autistic and refuse to acknowledge arguments. Even when I made a post literally telling you that you were ignoring most of what I said. Yes I know you're autistic. Anyway continuing your passive aggressive tirade is not going to help you and its not going to bury the fact that you have nothing to back you up. So just stop.

This is how far gone you are.

You do you.

I think the travel time is more grating in WW than any other title because of the rate at which you move, the fact that you can only move in one direction without stopping to change the direction of the wind, and the amount of sheer empty space that you travel through between major areas of interest. With Hyrule Field in OoT/TP, the area is much smaller, or at least it seems that way because you can use Epona to travel relatively quickly. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, but it's worth noting at least.

How can you say this when you've literally ignored most of what I've said? What guarantee do I have that you won't ignore me again? Fuck off retard. If you can't exhaust the terrible and arduous effort to respond to find and respond to my first post then you obviously won't do it now. You're not being reasonable in the least. You're just a passive aggressive little fucktard who can't hold an argument together and has to rely on claiming that the opposition has nothing to say.

The truth of the matter is the only thing you want to do is complain about the game for the sake of complaining, when there is no intellectual meaning to complain about something that has already been fixed.

You're the epitome of detrimental posting known as shitposting. To the point that, when called out on your poor behavior and lack of actual contribution to discussion, you simply spout ad hominems and "oh this is the usual x because I say so" or being a presumptuous faggot.

Once you actually have valid criticism I'll be eager to engage in discussion, otherwise please think before you speak. It says much more of a person admitting when they fucked up than trying to hard to win an argument with ad hominems and denying being wrong.

It's ok user, I forgive you for being a complete and utter retard. Once you actually have a point, you're welcome to type it down.

so*

I already pointed everything out and explained it thoroughly, they just love to ignore everything you say. I'm out.

You're still the embodiment of these comics and nothing you can say or do will change the fact that you're an unreasonable fuckwad who has no arguments.

The absolute madman. He can't throw a counter-argument, so he flings shit instead.

Do as all a favor and leave the thread. just stop posting. You've embarrassed yourself enough as it is.

In GC I'm in firm agreement. WWHD gives you the Swift Sail which doesn't require you to change the wind direction (the wind will always blow the way you sail) and doubles your movement speed, which is hugely welcome. Coupled with the fast travel available it's fine overall. Your foot speed in say, OoT makes travelling from region to region on foot sometimes a bit of a slog, particularly before you get the Sun's Song where arriving late means you actually have to wait real time to enter somewhere.

I can see why some people would be turned off (especially in GC where it is an issue unless you actively enjoy the gameplay/like the zen aspect), but overall I think it's not too dissimilar from the other hubs/main areas of the other 3D titles. They made it bigger but getting to each place was about the same length of time provided you took quickest methods.

MM best fast travel. Owl statues get it done in a game that's dense with everything relatively close together.

The reason I fault WW in particular for it is because it requires you to do a lot of exploration at the end, but the game makes it impossible to do this exploration earlier.

In most zelda games, exploration and backtracking (in the overworld) is not required. The reward for going out and solving overworld puzzles is usually a piece of heart or a magic meter extension or something similarly trivial but helpful. WW forces you to go out and explore. You have to go and find the triforce if you want to finish the game. But, because of the freedom that the sea provides, you aren't equipped to explore until you reach that point in the game.

In many zelda games, the world is somewhat segmented. OoT has child-hyrule and the adult-hyrule: once you finish the first 3 dungeons you have pretty much 'finished' child-hyrule and you can get most of the heart pieces found in the child-time because you have all the items you need.

In Majoras Mask you have the four regions of Termina. Once you have completed each dungeon, you basically have all the tools you need to explore its respective area and collect a couple of heart pieces.

Likewise in ALttP: the light world has puzzles that you can solve much earlier than the dark world.

When the world is segmented like this, the player is free to explore the areas behind them with the understanding that they typically have most of what they need. Once you make it to the adult time-period, the child time period is easy to explore; once you make it to the dark world, the light world is easy to explore; once you make it to the next area, the previous one is easy to explore.

The problem with WW is that you can go anywhere from the second you finish the first dungeon. Every island is available for you to explore, but the chances of you finding an island that you can actually complete are slim. There is no area to turn back to and explore, because chances are equally likely that you'll actually be travelling into an area that is supposed to be tackled much later in the game.

This isn't huge problem in and of itself, but the game requires you to go exploring to find the triforce later in the game. Exploration is mandatory later in the game, but systematically discouraged early in the game.

On my first playthrough, it went like this:

My second playthrough was better, because I remembered where most of the pieces were from my first playthrough, and I was able to go and tackle them pretty quickly.

There are many 3d dungeons that adhere to the 2d conventions I laid out.

That may be true and I'm happy to see examples so I can see where you're coming from, I'm just saying that if you go into designing a 3D dungeon saying "Let's just make our 2D design philosophy 3D" when the mechanics are completely different won't be as rewarding as you'd think. You need to think about the abstracts of how dungeoneering feels and try to get that aspect out of it, if you catch my drift. That may be what you meant in the first place,if so ignore my prattling.

Unlike that faggot you actual prove a good point.
I agree with you,user. Exploration is suddenly mandatory when not empowered early game, and the way exploration is given is poorly done in WW.
The exploration issue becomes a thing really once you need the fire and ice arrows in order to move forward in the game. Without exploring you cannot get these two items and they're necessary to advance the plot. we can say that there is exploration being mandatory or exercised before the tri-force shard hunt, so there's at leas that to prepare for the shards.
At the same time we can also say the game offers maps, so the exploration is not really open exploration, but rather "go here", making it much more trivial than it would be to find it out without any guidance, ultimately making the exercise of exploration not really mandatory or needed to be done by the player.

However I agree with you that the island exploration side-content in WW is definitely sprinkled all over the place instead of segmented in an orderly fashion like previous zelda titles, and I prefer the earlier titles way of exploration more, but i think an open exploration fashion can be good if well done, which is were BOTW comes in.

I think I see what you're getting at but if you can clarify it then that'd be great. I've never felt like a 3D Zelda dungeon hasn't opened up for me once I've gotten the key item

So, how does that work? You play the song, then use the sail, and the wind will automatically adjust according to your controller inputs? Or did they remove the song entirely and just give you free reign of movement? Either way, it's good that they fixed it.

I see where you're coming from. How do you think this could have been solved? Personally I wanted more dungeons, so I feel like it would've been more interesting if Link had to travel to ancient areas of underwater Hyrule to find the shards of the Triforce. The game was rushed, fine, but what bothers me is that they released an HD version. They could've added some of the cut content that was originally scrapped from the GC release.

That one. You just press A to bring the sail up and the wind automatically adjusts to you. If you turn the boat while sailing, the wind follows. It's a massive improvement.

Wind Waker is great. More like you're just a faggot.

I think its probably true that a lot of the cut content for WW ended up being used in TP. The design philosophy behind some of the dungeons in TP is very similar to the only somewhat complicated dungeon in WW.

Bear with me for a moment, as I haven't played the game in years, so my memory might be tad spotty. Makar's temple works kind of like a wagon wheel with spokes coming off of it. The central room is a like a hub, and there are paths coming out of it. Progress far enough down one path, and you will unlock another. Go back to the central room, go into the other path and eventually you will unlock a third. Go back to the hub room, go up the third path and you unlock something else.

You keep coming and going from this central room, and you have to keep track of what's happening and figure out how to navigate around the central room to each outward path. Eventually you get the hookshot, and moving around the central room becomes much easier, and you can go further down each path.

This sort of design is used a lot in TP. In a lot of dungeons, you enter a central room, and make progress out on a number of spokes until you reach a point where you get the item and the map opens up a lot.
I've attached a map of the wind temple from WW, and the lake temple from TP. If you look at the maps, I think it becomes clear.


Just put a limit on the areas you can explore early in the game.


Other zelda games reward you for being observant and noting where you need to use your item, so you can come back later when you have the item and unlock the way forward. Wind Waker has a strong tendency to just dump you in front of where you need to use the item once you get it.

The zelda dungeons I'm trying to describe reward spatial awareness and being observant. You have to understand the dungeon to progress. WW does the work for you, and points you straight at the target you need to hit, rather than letting you figure it out for yourself.

All the dungeons in MM go by the principles I described. In OoT: Lord Jabu Jabu's belly is pretty close to doing it, The forest temple does it, and the Water Temple does it to the extreme.

You're right OP
it had too much water

But does that make it worth playing Skyward Sword?

Also, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges here in terms of what the music covers. Windfall is a merchant town. LMF is an abandoned semi-futuristic sandpit. Both pieces work excellently for their purposes and are good in their own right.

I'll kill you while you sleep.

...

What do you see in there that's so Hindu?

Here we go~

My first Zelda was the first Zelda.
It's not my favorite and I think anyone still favoriting Zelda 1 is a retard.

Actually, most of Zeldas can be favorited, except:
Zelda 1: Dated as hell. Open World faggots keep forgetting that you can't beat the game without collecting the 8 triforce pieces. Breath of the Wild had a better open world.
Zelda 2: If you realize that the overworld map is not a proper level, you'll realize that this game is not that different from Castlevania 2. Instant death pits and 1-ups make the experience unreal. Good luck beating the final boss without cheating.
the DS games: Not bad games, just bland.
Skyward Sword: I have never felt the urge to replay this game ever.
All the Gaiden stuff, including the multiplayer Zeldas, Crossbow training & the Tingle games are not proper Zelda games. Same for Hyrule Warriors.

Who has the fucking selective memory again?


What is every single island if not a mini-dungeon? Cave of Ordeals? There was shit to do.


You must be one of the people who buys a $5 chink-made tool on Amazon then leaves a One-Star review that says, "Got the wrench and it wasn't as good as my friends who spent $100 on his. One star, wish I could give it 0." This sort of intellectual dishonesty is just fucking annoying. You bought a cartoony E for Everyone kids game and you're saying it's not hard enough. Everyone really wants to know: How fucking retarded are you?


Not if I kill him while he's awake, first. The musical styling in WW was god-tier.

This

Indeed, I forgot about that, it's the worst thing about ww.

Wow, it's almost like they introduced this because the platforming aspects of the game weren't simply running and jumping as in OoT/MM, but included hanging from ledges and sidling across walls.

You're fucking mental and need to get back on your state-enforced Ritalin.

OP is a fag that never made it past dragon roost island.

I like WW but damn, the game is unfinished as fuck.

The game was supposed to have a third island, but in the end they scrapped it. What REALLY bothers me is the fact that the game was supposed to have Hyrule as a playable place instead of just the castle and a road leading to Ganon's tower. Fine, shit happens, but why didn't they finish it in Wind Waker HD? Oh right because it was a shitty cash grab for full price.

So? How does that justify the price? Hey, guess what Nintendo, create something new.

Nobody complains about Orchestrated music.
Check how Twilight Princess sound with an actual orchestra:
youtu.be/zlkIUmn5USg?t=40m51s

Wind Waker has:
- Dragon Roost Island. Holy crap, first seconds into this I immediatly fell in love with it, something that only happened with Gerudo's Valley.
- Outset Island. This is comfyness turned into a song.
- The Ocean theme. You'll hear this when sailing. This is probably the best "overworld" theme in the whole Zelda theme.
- The Pirates theme.
- Fight with Ganon. Remember when the Ganon-fighting music was cool? I do.

Skyward Sword had what:
- Ballad of the Goddess: sounds great, only problem is that it NEVER sounds in the game. All you hear is Zelda singing it at the beginning and at key moments you get a neutered quiet version of it.
- Ghirahim's theme: elegant and funny as hell.
- Groose's theme: a remix of Wind Waker Pirate's theme.
- The Sky. I was really hyped the first time I heard this, thinking I was about to found mysterious floating islands somewhere, filled with secret villages. Lol.
I can't remember any other theme. Problem here is that all decent SS music only plays at key moments, while good music sounds almost at every moment in WW.

Man, it is way too early for bait threads. I can't believe this shit has almost 100 replies. You're better than this, Holla Forums. I'm ashamed of you.

...

While I haven't played BOTW, the only good Zelda games are 1, Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask. Any attempt at "traditional" Zelda has been pure garbage and outdone in every way by Okami.

There's that magic word again.

Yes, a lot of stuff feels unfinished in zelda games.
- Ocarina: No Light Dungeon. No use for Ice arrows. No unfreezed Zora's Domain.
- Oracles: No third game. Series is already great but a third green game based on color schemes would have made Oracles even better.
- Wind Waker: only getting two dungeons after getting the Master Sword felt incomplete. The underwater section also was extremely promising but there was almost nothing outside the Castle. The Triforce piece hunting could have been handled better. For example, make a sixth dungeon about finding the Temple of Time were you need to restore the 8 pieces into the proper Triforce of Courage.
- Minish Cap: Why the hell do you need to beat the game BEFORE being able to get the mirror shield?!?! WHAT THE FUCK!??!!
- Skyward Sword: There's almost nothing inside that secred Storm cloud, except for the Dream Fish from Link's Awakening.
- Breath of the Wild: The snow dragon has its own quest but the fire & electric dragon's don't. Out of time?

Can we all just agree that;
-Majoras Mask is the most overrated Zelda game
-Ocarina of Time is a solid Zelda game albeit not necessarily "The best game ever!" Like how the press makes it out to be
-Wind Waker was only slightly above average at best
-Twilight Princess was a great Zelda game that gets more hate than it deserves
-Skyward Sword will always just be plain shit because of the motion controls
-and finally that Breath of the Wild is what most Elder Scrolls games would be if TES was actually a decent franchise and that BotW is a solid Open World but doesn't really feel like a Zelda game regardless

???

user, we can all agree

That Kirby is the best Nintendo IP of all time

I can agree to all but 1 and 3.

Stopped reading

Let's see
On at least two counts, you're wrong, even if you don't like MM.
Solid is an acceptable word.
Above average? Not even fucking close.
It was mediocre, and once SS came out, everyone loves it now.
It was shit for many other reasons, motion controls were not one of them.
True enough, but not feeling like a Zelda game is a good thing. See my post here . Traditional Zelda is always mediocre at best.

Also
No.


I will, however, agree with this motherfucker. Got 3DS CFW set up just for Kirby.

Oh Jew!

Yes, there is that word again. Because it is true. What is your point? They could have actually done way more with it in the HD version but chose not to.

thezeldacycle.jpg

How do you do to emulate the swinging sword motions?
I know there are many ways to do it, starting from using the mouse, I'm just curious because a big deal of the game was replicating your actual hand movements.
I guess there's a reason why we stick to buttons & mouse to play.


I'm pretty sure everybody hates Fi more than Navi by now.

Thanks for the rage.

Try constantly repeating locations, shit enemies, horrible fetch parts, empty overworld and mostly shit dungeons.

That's not Zelda cycle. Zelda cycle is that the current game in the franchise is always shit while the one before that is good. You have it backwards. Squidward Sword broke the Zelda cycle because everyone still thinks its shit

The only way (and I fucking mean ONLY WAY) to emulate Skyward Sword on Dolphin is with an actual, physical Wiimotion+ controller. Dolphin Devs are autistic purists which is a double-edged sword because they feel like implementing emulated Wiimotion+ would be too much of a hackjob. And what's worse is not every Blutooth adapter/controller is able to properly handle Wiimotion+ which I learned the hard way. The whole thing is bullshit.

There is a Dolphin build that emulated motiin+ but its based on the terribly dated version 3 branch

Hmm. You'd think there'd be some kind of way to have a certain button combo be interpreted as "Vertical Swing", etc.

There's a badass USB sensorbar that was co-developed with the creators of the Dolphin Emulator to seamlessly integrate into it and instantly connect to WiiMotes. Works fucking perfectly, though the games themselves were not designed for PC setups, so when at very close range to the sensorbar as you typically would be at a desk rather than a living room, movements feel very sensitive.

Holy fucking shit.

Nope. Again, there is no emulated motion+ adaptors. You can emulate a wiimote, but the functionality to emulate the motion+ just isn't there

I wasn't complaining, I was agreeing that some stuff felt unfinished in Zelda games.


The "Zelda Cycle" is just a meme I have never heard outside Holla Forums.
Wind Waker was the only exception, since it was massively attacked when announced because of its cartoon looks, but after people actually played it the critics concentrated on sailing and now it's a somewhat acepted member in the franchise. I've never seen any other Zelda game receiving the same treatment.


Reminds me of MAME devs: "… the ability to actually play the games is considered a nice side effect ;)"

Wouldn't you need, like, ten buttons at that point, for swings alone? Sounds like a bigger pain than the actual motion controls.

Young Link is the best

What is the DolphinBar, nigger?

Some extra accessory I shouldn't have to buy when I already have a Bluetooth dongle? I guess I fucking have to now though if I want to play Legend of Waggle though

Depends on how many sword swings you actually need in the game. If you only needed the three (horizontal, vertical, thrust) then you find a way to implement just those three at the optimum swing.

Not saying it'd be easy, probably be a fucking nightmare, but anything to take the motion controls out would go a long way to making SS playable for me.

Just wait for the inevitable SSHD for the Switch.
>inb4 they use the fucking gyroscope in the joycons for the same purpose

The only fault it had, was that it wasn't as long as Ocarina and the entire time theme could have been made better. However, the characters and quests in the game were the most interesting.
Agree.
Wind Waker had the most fun overall gameplay to be honest, but way too short, empty and i want to strangle whoever put in the triforce pieces "quest"
Most boring first hours to a zelda game ever, and the "collect all light spheres in the map" quests were a fucking shit, but other than that it's a great game
Plus the abysmal amount of "collect stuff in map in specific time" quests and fighting the same boss 23 times. The only Zelda game i never completely finished. Watched the ending on youtube.
It's an okay game, but doesn't deserve the name Zelda in my opinion. The only reason it's a Zelda title, is because of marketing purposes. Also, the world is a bit too empty and ganon is a fucking joke.

The only big criticism i have about all Zelda games is that you have no option to change the difficulty level. I have to playthrough Zelda without picking up heart containers in order for it to be a challange. The bosses are too easy and predictable too.

So, you're saying it's really good?

The bosses are supposed to be over-glorified puzzles in a sense to go with the theme of puzzle-solving

Which is also where I find BotW not really feeling like a Zelda game, its actually kind of refreshing that the game has more of an emphasis on mini-boses than actual boses because they can be more challenging. People will disagree but a lot of the enemy dynamics remindes be of a Bloodsouls game where bosses are pretty much just a lot of health and you survive by dodging attacks and finding openings. I like that

Of course!
i got more fun out of playing Wand of Gamelon drunk than i did out of WW

Okay, who do you really want to blame for piracy not being convenient and perfect enough for your standards? Did you forget that the dolphin devs hand-coded that entire emulator from scratch over the course of a decade for FREE, and now give it to you for FREE? (and libre!!) If only you had one iota of understanding of the massive amount of work it has taken to make Dolphin what it is…

You have literally no excuse to complain.

Sin and Punishment 2
The Kirby Games
Resident Evil Games
House of the Dead

So many good games are available to you in impeccable condition for $20. It's a fucking steal.

And as a bonus, it is highly likely that the BT dongle you have is also compatible with Dualshock 3 controllers for use with DS3Tool and subsequently Better DS3. It is a very decent controller.

I'm not pissed at Dolphin you turbo autist. I'm pissed that I wasted time hunting down a Wiimote+ and Nunchuk and it was all for fucking nothing. I already know I can play with a Gamepad (and you're a fucking idiot for using a DS3 with some shady Chinese middleware when a DS4 requires no setup and can be synced with no third party software as a generic controller by holding Home+Share when scanning for devices) I just wanted to play ONE FUCKING GAME. I just wanted to play SS again. Why does it have to be so fucking complicated to play one game? I blame Nintendo more than anything else tbh. Motion Controls are the ultimate DRM

That series is shovelware shit, m8

Remove yourself and your shit taste, you fucking nigger.

Ok.


Clearly, yet again, you do zero fucking research about anything before either buying or writing.


As if I would pay the outrageous fucking cost for that shit controller with its dumbass LEDs when I already had a DS3. Or wait, don't tell me you actually bought a BloodborneBox?


It's not a bug, it's a feature.

I will feed you your skin if we ever meet.

I forgot about that part. Yeah, that sucked too. It's not that I don't appreciate them trying to expand the formula, it's that I can't appreciate it when the expansion to the formula isn't fun. I would've preferred them to play it safe with the physics and mechanics of OoT/MM than to soil basic movement mechanics trying something new like in WW.


No
MM has never been overrated, that title was always given to OoT. If anything, I'd grant the title of "most unduly overrated zeldo" to LttP. Fuck I hate LttP.
I haven't gotten to play it in depth yet, but the little I played of it and the bits I've seen people play of it while I wait for CEMU to stop sucking and getting better hardware lead me to agree. In fact, this might be the only objective truth you have in this list.

And very weird tone inconsistencies on top of mangling the lore.

I am sure that at the very least you can appreciate that they were trying. Notice that there was no such sidling in TP (IIRC). They can learn from their mistakes unlike other studios which simply double down.

Zelda is one of those series where even if they put out literally bad games, people would still buy and praise them, but Nintendo generally tend to attempt making SOME noticable changes between the major installments. That's really what inspires the rest of the industry - "They did X, and it sucked, it'd be much better if it had part of Y, but with Z added in" so we (ideally) end up with better games in seemingly unrelated genres because of the willingness of Nintendo to take risks, and often fail. The CoDs and Gears of Wars and Halos and Ass Creeds, etc., will never be the ones to at least attempt moving the industry forward.

Whoops, didn't realize you're a shitty person. I would have insulted you more.

Are you seriously pretending like LTTP is a good game? Even OOT was better.

I'm semi-banting.

LttP was god-tier for its time, and it has aged to good-great tier in my book.

Check.
Check
Check
Check
Check

Not sure what else you would really want as a fan of the top-down action-adventure genre.

I could argue that it's meant to show you Link's bucolic, peaceful, but unexciting farmboy life before it's shattered, but there are ways to do that without making it dull for a videogame.

As a side note, I find it funny that Wind Waker fans call TP Link a return to characterless blandness when he's among of the more expressive ones. Sure, he's not funny like Wind Waker's lovable doof was, but in cutscenes he opens up.

Sure. I recall the same thing, so there's probably credence to it.


Not my fault. LttP isn't Nintendo's only SNES game with Problem Middle Child Syndrome. It takes a lot from LoZ while also trying to pioneer, and it's clear that the formula that's present in all following games is starting to emerge, but it has a lot of the archaic and arcane properties of LoZ left over, making this weird game that doesn't know what it wants to be. Chief example being Quake and Ether. It's obvious you can't progress without them, but actually divining what the fuck to do since you can't progress is a challenge in and of itself. Something the later games did was to give you a taste of a mechanic first, and then allow you the option of delving more into it or progressing with the story. LttP failed to do the former constantly, while only giving you ideas of what that mechanic was when you couldn't use it. Shit like the Zora Flippers or the Ice Rod are literally at the ends of the map, and both are required to beat the game. Not to mention, there's a lot of shit (like the Ice Rod, like Armor/Weapon upgrades) that feel like they should be optional, but were actually required in the end and I just got them to complete it for the sake of it.
Nintendo can hardly be accused of not innovating, but with LttP and other games like it in other first-party franchises, I can't grok some of the ideas until they're fully fleshed out in later games. I feel the same way about Super Metroid, a shame, because it has objectively some of the best content, but I didn't feel like they really nailed down the perfect engine until Fusion when it was too late.
I don't give a fuck if it's an unpopular opinion, but that doesn't give you license to be a nigger about it, you nigger.

Fuck off

Party's done and thread is still going so ignoring the obvious shitposts.

Re-read the post. Especially the first bit.

Not hindu, just currynigger. Can I just say absolutely fucking everything? The colours, the patterns, the overuse of lotus flowers… it all reminds me of currynigger shit.

EmuCR-Dolphin-MotionPlus-3.0-410-x64 uses the right analog as the motion controls and you use the right trigger to increase the sensitivity. This way you can be precise and/or spastic. Anytime you want to use the sword you hold the trigger and press analog stick one way or another corresponding with where you want to hit. It works extremely well except for when you need to draw on walls.

I will just add here how i find it fucking hilarious this concept of your. "The version is pure SHIT" you say and say again. Damm, mate, hold yourself up. WW is a good game far from shit, even with all his flaws and boring pace. The world isn't black and white, you know?

Fuck you nigger, it's the best Zelda game.

...

Shittest of tastes.

Can everybody in this thread agree that Phantom Hourglass is the absolute worst Zelda game?

No.
Did you forget Spirit Tracks?
Second worst, I will concede.
At least that I can think of.

I wish i could have more games with that currynigger aesthetic.

Stop Skyward sword was ass

Windwakers MiniBoss Music and Phantom Ganon Music were top notch

I can't understand you. Why are you writing like this? What do you mean? Is this some kind of alien coding?

I don't want to respond to obvious shitposting, but come on up your game and stop being such a basic bitch.

It doesn't look bad, but its so pervasive throughout the entire game that it really disturbs me. Did some currynigger walk in and decide Zelda had to be about India? Zelda always had at least some differences in environments, but in Skyward its basically all kinds of currynigger environments and nothing else. Its just such a drastic change from the formula of having many different cultural inspirations that I want to know why.

What?

Do you not enjoy reading this sort of formatting?

Does it not make it easier to read?

Pic unrelated.

I think you're wrong. I think your picture is very related.

I'm guilty of spacing text like that too sometimes, mainly because of how small the quick reply tab is. Twas sarcasm, however.

You best be baiting me.

What can i say? I have this autistic urge for a good use of punctuation.

Now you're just trying to make me feel bad.

Yeah it sucks.
No. Also Zelda was never challenging. If you want to complan about the quantity of dungeons that is a very fair complaint. Give an example of a challenging zelda dungeon because I really can't find one in any of the games.
- waterworld
Yeah, it sucks until you can warp around.
- terrible new items, like the slow grappling hook
Leaf was cool, Boomerang was good and even improved upon on TP. The grappling hook is slow in OoT as well but I think the other items make up for it.
- shit combat
Better than BotW combat by far. Zelda always had mediocre combat.

Sauce ?

Ocarina of Time is a fucking terrible zelda game.

- shitty forced stealth
- awful dungeons that are short without any challenge (besides the water temple that for some reason takes retards ages)
- empty grassland overworld
- terrible new items, like sticks and the hammer which are both just the sword but shit
- shit combat

Everything about this game is just wrong.

This is true.
It does not refute the fact that WW is shit.

If you think WW is shit, you must think BotW is the worst 3D game ever made.

Nigga what the fuck are you talking about most of you're points are why it's a great game

Agreed

It's one of the best zelda games out there. Op, you need better taste.

Incredible how Holla Forums fags are always shitposters without fail.

a whole lot of unchecked numbers in this thread

I suppose it might be thanks to how Japan sees India compared to how it sees China. As in, most ancient and spiritual nation in history, or something like that.

thank u

Fixed

...

There's also that rumor that they needed two whole years of development time to dummy out puzzles for the game that were based around the Wii U version and needed to rework the game for Switch.

I hate how this is seen as a reddit thing, where in reality what will be 5 or 6 lines in the reply box is actually just one line when it actually gets posted, at which point my spacing autism is like "alright we gotta break this wall of text".

For example, that up there was 5 lines in the reply box.

Just make the reply box as long as the page when your done to see how it's going to look, that's what I do.

Isn't that, that bitch Trade Chat? Why would anyone expect an attention whore that plays retail WoW to know what a good game is?

...

No, that's not her.

Wow, what a faggot, what a surprise!
its not too bad.
You're going to die in your sleep.
nigga what?
wew lad

rolling

ok

well, i just masturbated anyways. though i could do it again. nothing beats a post shower fap